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my goodness you have done well here.... ok i shall use this info and see if i get any further connections.... i never knew about frederick....

im baffled

i have the 1901 cenus image here and theres no frederick on there.... mind you nor is there kate..... i have no record of frederick at all no birth cert marriage or death im wondering if he died soon after or if ive missed him altogether?

Looks like Frederick is the one I found in 1901:

Marriages Sep 1884 (>99%)

>>>>>BEETLES James Allen St. Saviour 1d 75
DONOVAN Henry Edward St Saviour 1d 75
HARRISON Louisa St. Saviour 1d 75
>>>>>Pickett Elizabeth St Saviour 1d 75

madmeg i dont know know what you mean ive got the 1901 cenus info but i couldnt find frederick on there..... and you have posted the marriage above do you know how this fits?

thanks :)

Meg means the Frederick she found on the previous page living with the Beetles family and a nephew.

James Beetles married Elizabeth Pickett.


Elizabeth Pickett
Age: 19
Estimated birth year: abt 1865
Spouse Name: James Allen Beetles
Spouse Age: 24
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 21 Sep 1884
Parish: All Saints, Walworth
County: Middlesex
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Reuben Richard Pickett
Spouse Father Name: Benjamin Beetles

I've also found the marriage banns for James and Grace Dorothy Minnie Williams but the actual marriage doesn't appear to be on there.

Interestingly Grace is stated as a widow so you really their marriage cert to find her maiden name.

Christine

Look on page 5. I found a possible Frederick living with the Beetles family. Then I found a marriage of James Beetles to Elizabeth Pickett - likely a sister of your James.

I don't think Elizabeth and James are siblings as his father's name is stated as James on the marriage but could be cousins.

Elizabeth's father is Rueben Richard.

Christine

ok im just trying to see where this fits as they are new names to me....

thank you everyone for helping :)

I can see Reuben Richard married to Eliza with daughter Elizabeth, but I can't find him as a child, hopefully with a brother James. However, Reuben has 6 other children who could have been that Frederick's parent.

Perhaps we need to pause a little to let Alexandra get her head round these people.

Alexandra, there is someone with a tree on Ancestry (The O'Brien family) with some of your people. She has James born 1864 marrying Norah Dwyer in 1917, after Ann Rosina died years earlier. It's only a small tree (thought might have been added to but not updated on Ancestry), but the person has exact dates, so maybe if you could contact them they would provide you with copy certificates - saves a bit of money.

ok how about to i contact the family?

thank you all kindly for your help it seems a nightmare trying to piece the family you were right about the pickett dwyer marriage i have that here including the certificate :)

x

It would seem that the Frederick Pickett with the Beetles in 1901 is a different family as this is probably his birth.

Births Jun 1898 (>99%)

Pickett Frederick Lewisham 1d 1148



And this probably the birth for your Frederick.

Births Sep 1897 (>99%)

Pickett Frederick St. Saviour 1d 38



Both Frederick and Kate are missing in 1901, possibly with a family member and mistranscribed.


I have replied to your email Alexandra about the images.

Christine

Well, I thought I'd struck lucky Christine.

Seems you could be right. That's the beauty of a forum and somebody else checking you out.

Alexandra, if you're not an Ancestry member, you probably can't.

I can do it for you if you like.

Margaret

Hi Margaret,

I thought the same as you about Frederick to begin with.

Did you notice that I had found the banns but not marriage for James and Grace Williams and she was noted as a widow?

Christine

yes meg that would be brilliant i dont have ancestry access.... any help would be fantastic x

I have emailed the Marriage Banns.

The actual marriage doesn't appear to be on Ancestry.

As she was a widow then there could possibly be children from that marriage as we were looking for Pickett births and MMN of Williams.

Christine

Christine, Flick posted this back on page 1:

Marriages Jun 1920 (89%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pickett James Williams Southwark 1d 290

Can't find 'other half' at present.....not transcribed by freebmd

EDIT:

I've ploughed through the images on Ancestry.......the spouse is
WILLIAMS GRACE D.M.

Here we are:

Marriages Dec 1911 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>>Hill Grace D M Southwark 1d 207
Mace Joseph H Southwark 1d 207
Maybey Jessie J Southwark 1d 207
>>>>>Williams James Southwark 1d 207

Hmmm....1911

HILL, George Frederick Head Married
2 years M 26 1885 Stationery Assistant London Bermondsey VIEW
HILL, Grace Wife Married F 22 1889 London Shadwell VIEW
HILL, Harold George Son Married M 1 1910 London Walworth VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
1805 Reference:
RG14PN1805 RG78PN64 RD23 SD4 ED13 SN222

Registration District:
Southwark Sub District:
Newington North Enumeration District:
13 Parish:
St Mary Newington

Address:
13a Muntn Road Walworth County:
London

Perhaps not her:

Marriages Dec 1908 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CARTER William Henry Southwark 1d 203
HILL George Frederick Southwark 1d 203
ROBERTS Marian Frances Southwark 1d 203
SLIGHT Grace Mary A Southwark 1d 203