General Chat

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Have just mentioned on the thread about Elizabeth 1st that my other half is convinced that forks would not have been used in Elizabeth's day. She looked most odd digging into her meal with a knife and fork

Hiya Dee you do come out with some good questions! I bet someone will know, prolly Helen Little Nell? xx Jen

The first use of forks in the French Court (1589), according to Google. Introduced in my house having watched Elizabeth I Best wishes Mike

That's interesting Mike. The other half thought they came into use over here in the 18th century, but doesn't know why!!!! Jen I am one of those irritating people who spot something that appears out of place and won't rest till I can solve it!! LOL Dee xx

There must have been forks before Elizabethan times - there was the incident of 'Morton's Fork' in Henry VII's time (according to 1066 & All That) LOL CB >|<

Dee, your double posts fascinate me, how do you do that? Mike

The 18th century rings bells to me too. I'm sure they came into use in this country during the reign of Queen Anne.

Mike I am a very talented lady LOL actually the screen freezes, I press refresh, and hey presto I appear twice. Dee xx

Thanks Dee, I also like to get to the cause of things which seem unusual, hence my question. Best wishes Mike

Well I have just asked my friend Jeeves, and he has come up with this: The fork was the last dinner utensil to be adopted by diners. It was first used as a personal utensil by nobility in the Middle East in the 7th century. From there, it made its way into Europe in the 11th century, but was slow to catch on. Italians mainly used it for a serving fork to transfer food onto their plates, then used their fingers to eat. By the 16th century, however, most Italians were using table forks. In France, it is believed that the wife of King Henry II, Catherine de Medicis, introduced the fork from Italy to France in 1533. It was also slow to catch on there with the general public. In 1607, Thomas Coryate, returning from Italy, introduced the table fork to England. At first forks were used in England only by the wealthy. They were considered to be pretentious by the general public, and unnecessary when you had fingers. However, they gradually caught on and were commonly used by the populace by the end of the 18th century. ------------------------------------------------ Just goes to show that the continentals were far more sophisticated than us. It also seems to point to the fact that Elizabeth would probably not have used one, if my dates are right Dee xx

I have found - Used in the far east from 7th c.(with two prongs). On Royal European tables since 14thc , mainly as serving items, emerged as major items of cutlery from early 17th c.(with more prongs.). Ben Johnson sang their praises in 1616 - 'Forks, what be they? The laudable use of forks Brought into custom here,as they are in Italy, To the sparing of napkins.' (just trying to get my teenager to appreciate them - or any cutlery! lol !) Elaine x.

Hi CB Good job I have Jeeves, I had to look up Morton's Fork!!! For anyone else who wondered what it refers to here is what I found: Morton's Fork is an expression that describes a choice between two equally unpleasant alternatives, or two lines of reasoning that lead to the same unpleasant conclusion. It is analogous to the expressions 'between the devil and the deep sea' or 'from the frying pan to the fire'. The expression originates from a policy of tax collection devised by John Morton, Lord Chancellor 1487, under the rule of Henry VII. His approach was that if the subject lived in luxury and had clearly spent a lot of money on himself, he obviously had sufficient income to spare for the king. Alternatively, if the subject lived frugally, and showed no sign of being wealthy, he must have had substantial savings and could therefore afford to give it to the king. These arguments were the two prongs of the fork and regardless of whether the subject was rich or poor, he didn't have a favourable choice Dee xx

Fork, n (2) A pronged table utensil for conveying food to the mouth, or for use with a knife for cutting the food. 'While with their knife....they cut their meate....they fasten their forke....upon the same dish....this forme of feeding I understand is generally used in all places in Italy, their forkes being for the most part made of yron or steele, and some of silver, but those are used only by gentlemen. [1608] CORYAT 'crudities' vol i p. 106 [Cor 1776]' from Funk & Wagnels New Standard Dictionary, 1947

Davo!!! Have YOU got Funk & Wagnall's too??? I've inherited the 1948 2-Volume set from my parents, but apart from Rowan & Martin's Laugh-in TV show (American), I've never heard them mentioned anywhere else. Throughout my life I've gone to 'Look it up in your Funk & Wagnall's'! LOL CB >|<

Morning Dee!!! I wondered that when watching it too!!!! I don't think they used a knife & fork at the same time that early either!! Another question for you. Did they really do gynae exams then too? I couldn't believe what I was seeing!! When was the speculum invented? lol :0) Joanxxx

fork knows ! (I'll get me coat)

Joan Shall I change the thread heading? When did they first use forks and speculums? LOL Dee xx

Dee :0) Paul, go dust your widescreen he he !!!!! :0) Joanxx

Seriously though Joan, I was a bit surprised at the opening scene, and hadn't realised they were that technologically advanced back then. Dee xx