Find Ancestors

This is long story! Please bear with me so I can give you all the info I have and then pose the questions I am trying to answer :-)

In the 1891 census at 6 Poplar Terrace Balsall Heath.....
Eliza Dunford Head 57 Widowed
Richard Dunford Son 13 single
John Cox Son 21 Married
Sarah Hartley Daughter 31 Married
Albert Hartley Son 1 Single

Poplar Terrace is a place where loads of my ancestors have lived. Eliza is my gg grandmother. Born Lashford. She first married Henry Cox and had 5 children:
Sarah Ann 1857, Herbert Alfred 1862, Frances Jane 1865, Thomas Henry 1867 (died 1868) and John James 1870.

Henry, a boatman died in an accident on the Severn in 1872 and Eliza remarried in 1877 to Richard Dunford who sadly died in 1879. They had one son Richard James 1878.

So that identifies most of the people present at the census although John was not married and Sarah was 34.
Albert Hartley is HER son not Eliza's.

I purchased his birth certificate which came back as
DOB 17/12/1889 in Bradford. Father John Richard Hartley, a carter, mother Sarah Hartley formerly Cox.

In 1901, Albert is living in Lower Mitton, Stourport. Aged 11, he is the nephew of the head Isaiah Jones, wife Annie. Annie is Ann Lashford, Eliza's sister. Also present is Alice "Louie" who is Alice Lowe one of Ann's children from her first marriage. So family provenance holds up.

So I turned my attention to John Richard Hartley. Born 21/10/1866 in Eccleshill, Bradford. Baptised on 28/01/1869 at Eccleshill St Luke. Mother's maiden name Nicholson which ties in with Albert's middle name.

And here's where the mystery starts...

In 1891 he is at home with his parents and brothers at the Policeman's Lodge, Bowling Park Bradford. Shown as married but no wife with him.

In 1901 he is in Bradford aged 34 with wife Clara born in Leeds around 1872 (she is 29)

In 1911 he is back with his parents and a brother. Entry shows married for 25 years 2 children both living (crossed out). No wife or kids.

In 1921, he's still in Bradford.

I cannot find a marriage to Sarah Cox. After that 1891 census, she is shown as widowed and living in the Worcestershire/Warwickshire area until her death in 1926.
Curiously her death certificate shows her as widow of Albert Hartley (her son) but the informant was her sister-in-law so may have got this wrong.

So to go back to John Richard Hartley in the censuses, he is John R or John Richard in all except 1921 when he is plain John . In all censuses he has birthplace of Eccleshill EXCEPT 1901 with Clara. where it is Bradford St Peter.

Question 1 - IS THIS THE SAME MAN?
I can't find another John R birth so it must be??? I can't identify Clara. Cross referencing John Hartley marriages with Claras brings up a few but none fit with a birth in Leeds in 1872. There is a Clara from Leeds that fits a marriage but she was born in 1863

And here's another twist. Don't ask me why I bought it (I can't remember) but I have a marriage certificate between John Richard Hartley on 04/04/1885 to Sarah Rebecca Whitehouse aged 21. It's definitely him.. father William a policeman. Address at time of marriage Bowling Park Lodge. I suspect I bought it to see if Sarah was Sarah Cox but she is a spinster.

Question 2 - WHAT HAPPENED TO THIS SARAH?
Was it she that had two children?
Her parents were Thomas and Eliza Ann. I only "discovered" this certificate yesterday so my research is very scant!

Hope I haven't bored you too much! Look forward to any thoughts

As ever

Jude

It's easier to understand info if we see the records in question.............

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
36, Great Cross Street, Bradford, Yorkshire & Yorkshire (West Riding), England
John R Hartley Head Married Male 34 1867 Iron broker Bradford, England
Clara Hartley Wife Married Female 29 1872 Wool comber Leeds, England

1911 Census For England & Wales
185 New Hey Road Bradford, Bradford, Yorkshire & Yorkshire (West Riding), England
William Hartley Head Married Male 72 1839 Police pensioner Yorks Eccleshill Bfd
Hannah Hartley Wife Married Female 69 1842 - Yorks Otley
John Richard Hartley Son Married Male 44 1867 Metal broker Yorks Eccleshill Bfd
Frederick William Hartley Son Single Male 32 1879 Boot repairer Yorks Bradford

Married 25 years 2 living children (crossed out as the info should be attached only to a woman)

Marriages Jun 1885 (>99%)
HARTLEY John Richard Bradford Y. 9b 298
WHITEHOUSE Sarah Rebecca Bradford, Y. 9b 298

HARTLEY, ERNEST WHITEHOUSE
GRO Reference: 1885 D Quarter in BRADFORD, YORKSHIRE Volume 09B Page 70
HARTLEY, FLORENCE WHITEHOUSE
GRO Reference: 1887 J Quarter in BRADFORD YORKSHIRE Volume 09B Page 24

1921 Census Of England & Wales
1, Windsor Street, Bradford, Yorkshire (West Riding), England
John Hartley Head Male 1867 54 Eccleshill, Bradford, Yorkshire, England Broker Metal Own Account
Charlie Senior Boarder Male 1865 55 Bradford, Yorkshire, England General Dealer Metals & C Own Account

John says he is 'married'


Who registered his death?

Name John R Hartley
Death Age 59
Birth Date abt 1867
Registration Date 1926
Registration Quarter Apr-May-Jun
Registration District Bradford
Inferred County Yorkshire West Riding
Volume 9b
Page 223

Purely out of interest..................

Name John Richard Hartley
Gender Male
Birth Place Eccleshill Near Bradford
Event Date 13 Mar 1882
Residence Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
Father William Hartley
Mother Hannah Hartley
Record Type Discharge
Volume Date Range 1874 - 1885
Reference Number LC/SS1/8/2-4
Register Numbers 405-968
Institution East Moor Community Home School

There is no marriage for Sarah Cox to anyone named Hartley in the area in which she was born and raised.......or in Yorkshire

Her son in 1901

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
35, Brindley Street, Upper Mitton, Droitwich, Worcestershire, England
Isaiah Jones Head Married Male 52 1849 Iron hinge dresser Ombersley, Worcestershire, England
Annie Jones Wife - Female 59 1842 - Worcestershire, England
John R Jones Son Single Male 17 1884 Cirele cutter tin Worcestershire, England
Albert E T Jones Son - Male 15 1886 Apprentice to stone mason Worcestershire, England
Alice Lowe Step daughter Single Female 29 1872 Ladies maid Hamstead, London, England
Albert Hartley Nephew - Male 11 1890 - Yorkshire, England

You say you have Albert's birth cert - who was the informant?

Erika H

Just got the death cert....

Declarant was M. A. Holden, older sister.

I had seen that Reform School thing...he was there for stealing three ducks and a hen. Sentence seems to be 10 days and 4 years......

He was also acquitted in 1897 of fraudulently obtaining a pony. Didn't think they were relevant to my search although they confirm he seems to have been a thoroughly bad feckless lot!

Not sure what Sarah Cox was doing in Yorkshire to have got pregnant (assuming she met him in Yorkshire and not in Stourport). The other Sarah's mother remarried in 1878 after Thomas had died in 1876. She relocated to Knaresborough in Yorkshire which might explain why THAT Sarah was in Yorkshire to get married to him. Although other than the marriage certificate I haven't found any trace of her in Bradford before or after the marriage.

Jude

Just bought two certs Hartley/Whitehouse and both are spot on.

Ernest in 1885 and Florence in 1887

Something maybe to tie down where she went after the births.

Jude

Repeating……(you may have missed the question)

Who registered Albert’s birth?

Sarah Ann Cox nee Hartley

Jude

The mother, then, so no sign of whoever the father was.

Other than she named him as the father.......at the address of his father..The Lodge Bowling Park....

The boy Ernest was in Knaresborough in 1891, along with Mary Whitehouse, born c1870 in Birmingham, and his grandmother Eliza A Wood

Don’t see any sign of his sister………..

Haven’t so far been able to find EITHER Sarah on censuses after 1891…perhaps you’ve had more luck?

Baptisms of the Hartley/Whitehouse children.

Note that their father is a labourer in 1885, and a carter in 1887. Not a metal broker or similar. Not the same man??

Florence Hartley
in the North Yorkshire, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1924
Name Florence Hartley
Record Type Baptism
Baptism Date 7 Oct 1887
Baptism Place Knaresborough, Holy Trinity, Yorkshire, England
Father John Richard Hartley [ occupation: Carter . Address: Waterside ]
Mother Sarah Rebecca Hartley
Page number 145


Ernest Hartley
in the West Yorkshire, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1910
Name Ernest Hartley
Age 0
Record Type Baptism
Birth Date 14 Sep 1885
Baptism Date 14 Oct 1885
Baptism Place Bradford, St Augustine, Yorkshire, England
Parish as it Appears Undercliffe, St Augustine
Father John Hartley [ occupation: Labourer. Address: 54 Hustler Street ]
Mother Rebecca Hartley

He was a Carter on 1891 census - living with parents

It does seem that all three children were fathered by the same man. It is also pretty obvious that he only married once.

Completely irrelevant thought flashed through my mind -

"Fly Fishing" by J R Hartley.

:-D :-D :-D

Argyll Gran, I have Sarah Ann Cox/Hartley in all the censuses

In 1901 she is a servant at 32 Wellington Road, Edgebaston, Birmingham
In 1911 she is a servant at Cross Keys, Jamaica Row, Birmingham
In 1921 She is a boarder/friend at 8/160 Edward Road, Balsall Heath, Birmingham
The family name is Cox but I haven't established a family connection yet

And in 1926 on her death she was at 53 Upper Cox Street Balsall Heath which led on from Poplar Terrace which is where this thread began :-)

Not found hide or hair of Sarah Rebecca after the wedding but now I have the children I may be able to glean something from them...IF I can find them!

Jude

Jude

I’ve told you where Ernest was in 1891!!

John J Donnelly Head Married Male 37 1864 Fisherman Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Isabel Donnelly Wife Married Female 33 1868 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John J Donnelly Son - Male 12 1889 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Charles Keenan Step son - Male 14 1887 Printers apprentice Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Ernest F Keenan Step son - Male 7 1894 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Ernest Harkey Boarder - Male 15 1886 Boot finisher Bradford, Yorkshire, England
John J Donnelly Head Married Male 37 1864 Fisherman Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Isabel Donnelly Wife Married Female 33 1868 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John J Donnelly Son - Male 12 1889 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Charles Keenan Step son - Male 14 1887 Printers apprentice Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Ernest F Keenan Step son - Male 7 1894 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Ernest Hartley Boarder - Male 15 1886 Boot finisher Bradford, Yorkshire, England

FMP has transcribed surname as HarKey

?? (cert will name father.)

Marriages Sep 1920 (>99%)
Hartley Ernest Wood Carlisle 10b 1330
Wood Emily Hartley Carlisle 10b 1330

Birth a year 'out' but not unusual

1939 Register
79 Grandison Road, Liverpool, Liverpool C.B., Lancashire, England
Ernest Hartley 13 Sep 1886 Male Tram Conductor Married 86 1
Emily Hartley 08 May 1891 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 86 2
John L Hartley 28 Aug 1921 Male Apprentice Chronium ?aters Single 86 3
Jeffery P Hartley 06 Jul 1925 Male Shop Buy Boot Trade Single 86 4
William E Hartley 16 Sep 1928 Male At School Single 86 5

Sorry I missed that....but it doesn't help with Sarah Rebecca which is my only reason for wanting to trace the children. Technically they are not relations of mine but I am just curious.

Name John Lawrence Hartley
Gender Male
Age 22
Birth Date abt 1922
Death Date 18 Feb 1944
Cemetery Naval Memorials In The United Kingdom Plymouth Part IV
Burial Country England
Regimental Number D/MX 101280
Region or Memorial Memorial Register
Father Ernest Hartley
Mother Emily Hartley

Name John Lawrence Hartley
Event Death
Birth Date 28 Aug 1921
Birth Place Liverpool, Lancs.
Death Date 18 Feb 1944
Death Age 22