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Elizabeth McKenzie Newlands (birth suggested by GG) pprobably married James Cameron in Forres in 1915 - so hadn't died before 1911.

NEWLANDS
ELIZABETH MCKEN. . . . . . .
CAMERON
JAMES
1915
137/ 32
Forres




She may be the sister of the Mary whose death I discounted above.

Elizabeth Newlands
in the 1901 Scotland Census
Name: Elizabeth Newlands
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1898
Relationship: Daur (Daughter)
Father's Name: William Newlands
Mother's Name: Mary Newlands
Gender: Female
Where born: Forres, Morayshire
Registration Number: 137
Registration District: Forres
Civil Parish: Forres
County: Moray
Address: 20 Murdoch's Bdgs
ED: 1
Household Schedule Number: 85
Line: 8
Roll: CSSCT1901_41
Household Members:
Name Age
William Newlands 22
Mary Newlands 28
Elizabeth Newlands 3
Mary Newlands 2


and this looks like her later:

Elizabeth Mackenzie McGillvray
in the Canada, Ocean Arrivals (Form 30A), 1919-1924
Name: Elizabeth Mackenzie McGillvray
Gender: Female
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1898
Birth Place: Forres, Scotland
Age: 26
Date of Arrival: 17 1924
Port of Arrival: Saint John, New Brunswick
Ship Name: Marburn

Husband: William McGillvray

Marriage:

MCGILLIVRAY
WILLIAM
NEWLANDS
ELIZABETH
1924
137/ 5
Forres

If 5 children were born and two had died, as per 1911, the person ‘Dolly’ simply can’t be the natural child of Charles and Jane, unless she was born AFTER 1911 census was taken

Have you considered that she may have been the illegitimate child of one of the daughters?

I've just spoken to my g Aunt, she is convinced Dolly is one of the sisters. I'm sure she's wrong, nothing seems to connect her to any of them.

She also didn't know about the two siblings that died and neither did I so thanks for that information.

I think I'll try and track down some of Jane Newlands (1893) family.

Thank you again for your help.
Meg

You say, "In the photos Dolly does look younger than Jane and Christina."

Does that mean that she is in the same photos as Jane and Christina?

Roughly when do you think the photos were taken?

Jane 1893 is Jeannie Hurn in 1911 census.

Children:

HURN, HELEN ISABELLA mms NEWLANDS
GRO Reference: 1911 M Quarter in TYNEMOUTH Volume 10B Page 311


HURN, HANNAH mms NEWLANDS
GRO Reference: 1911 D Quarter in TYNEMOUTH Volume 10B Page 576

Births Sep 1923 (>99%)
Hurn Elizabeth Newlands Tynemouth 10b 564

Births Dec 1924 (>99%)
Hurn Jeannie N Newlands Tynemouth 10b 515


HURN
CHARLES NEWLAND
M
1921
168/4 8
Woodside

Hi have a photo of Jane and Dolly Grimsby Docks 5th September 1958.
Also a photo of Christina, Dolly and Jane, but unsure what year.
I have a public tree on Ancestry with the photos on there.

Death of son Charles::

HURN
CHARLES NEWLAND
19
1940
153/AF 145
Service Returns



CHARLES NEWLANDS HURN
Ordinary Seaman
Service Number: P/SSX 31227
H.M.S. Kimberley
Royal Navy
United Kingdom
Died 14 April 1940
19 years old
PORTSMOUTH NAVAL MEMORIAL
Panel 40, Column 1.
United Kingdom

Additional Info: Son of Joe and Jane Hurn, of Woodside, Aberdeen.

Possible births of other Hurn children, as Charles was born in Woodside ???

HURN
GEORGE
M
1926
168/4 130
Woodside


HURN
CHRISTINA
F
1929
168/4 3
Woodside


HURN
JOYCE
F
1930
168/4 193
Woodside

You can't get certs for these births at present, because of the Covid situation.

There are lots of Hurn births in other areas of Aberdeen(shire) - but they can't all be Joe and Jane's children. Some may be grand-children.

Deaths in Scotland of Hurn children with mms Newlands:

HURN
JOSEPH
62
mms NEWLANDS
1980
321/ 113
Bucksburn


HURN [ also listed as Paterson - married 1932 Aberdeen ]
GLADYS MARGARET
67
mms NEWLANDS
1982
321/ 49
Bucksburn


HURN [ also listed as Kane - married 1929 Rubislaw ]
HANNAH
75
mms NEWLANDS
1987
321/ 144
Bucksburn


HURN [ also listed as McKinnon married 1956 Aberdeen ]
JEANNIE NEWLAND
62
mms NEWLANDS
1987
369/ 6
Arbroath


HURN [ also listed as Henderson - married 1929 Woodside ]
HELEN ISABELLA
77
mms NEWLANDS
1988
321/ 128
Bucksburn



Gladys's birth - one of these (or both):

HURN
GLADYS MARGARET
F
1915
168/3 72
Rubislaw


HURN
GLADYS MARGARET
F
1915
168/1 45
St Nicholas


Joseph's birth:

HURN
JOSEPH
M
1918
168/1 47
St Nicholas

I've looked at the photo of Jane and Dolly at Grimsby Docks.
I agree she does look a bit younger than Jane (assuming Dolly is sthe one on the right) - but not by much.

They do look very similar in the photo of Christina, Dolly and Jane with William Webster, and could well be sisters.


If her surname is never mentioned, she could be just a friend.

[ I also see that you already have all that info re Hurn births ! ]

Thanks ArgrllGran

Didn't know about Jeannie or Joseph.

Don’t know if this could be of any significance, but just looked at Charles Newlands death certificate and Jane Hurn his daughter was living at 754 Great Northern Road 1929. Was told Dolly lived at 747?

---just putting this in,,,,,,,,,,,,Dolly is a pet name for Dorothy.

Mrs Jane Hurn
in the Aberdeen City and Former Counties of Aberdeenshire, Scotland, Electoral Registers, 1832-1976
Name: Mrs Jane Hurn
Record Type: Parliamentary and Municipal Registers
Residence Year: 1930-1931
Street Address: Great Northern Road 754
Residence Place: Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Parliamentary Division: Aberdeen

Living with Joe Hurn.

There's also a family by the name of McKimmie at the same address - presumably a different flat.

At 747 there's Mrs Josephine Bissett, Mrs Jean Fraser, and Charles & Mrs Isabella Anderson.


So Dolly wasn't there in 1930-31, anyway.

The only Dorothy Hurn showing up on Aberdeen ERs on Ancestry is in 1975 - too late?

She's at 22c Manor Avenue, with George, Graham, Joseph, and Margaret I M Hurn.


In 1965, at 22 Manor Avenue are Margaret I and Joseph Hurn.

They married in 1937:

HURN
JOSEPH
MILNE
MARGARET INSCH
1937
168/3 393
Aberdeen Eastern District


Margaret died in 1997:

HURN
MARGARET INSCH
78
mms GELLIE
1997
321/ 95
Bucksburn


Her birth:

MILNE
MAGGIE INSCH
F
1919
168/2 110
St Machar


Is her husband the son of Jane/Jeannie Newlands?
Jane's son Joseph died in Bucksburn in 1980 - death already posted.


Not that that's any help at all with Dolly!

ArgyllGran the information on Joseph Hurn looks correct. I did come across a Georgina McKenzie known as Dolly but can’t find it now.

A child named Dorothy May Hurn was born in Aberdeen in 1953 - but of course isn't the woman in the 1958 photo.

Possible siblings of Dorothy May are Charles 1952, George 1954, Graham 1955, and John Milne Hurn in 1949.

All born in Aberdeen Northern District.

I think these are the children of Margaret Milne and Joseph Hurn, as in my previous post.

Not sure where that takes us - if anywhere!




Your mention of Georgina McKenzie reminds me that yesterday I noticed the marriage of a Dorothy McKenzie to a Charles Milne in 1958, and wondered if that could be connected , either throught the McKenzie side or the Milnes. Bit of a long shot, though, to put it mildly.

This looks like her death [ also listed as McKenzie ]:

MILNE
DOROTHY
62
mms MACKAY
1993
300/ 257
Aberdeen

Re Dorothy May Hurn 1953 -

I don't see any marriage or death for her on SP - though of course she may have done neither.

However, there's the marriage of a Dorothy M Hurn to an Alexander Thomson in 1989 in Hull reg district.

That made me think of Grimsby Docks - although that photo was a long time before.

And of course it's far too random to assume she's the same Dorothy - or has any connection to your family.

2003-2008 ER, there's a Dorothy M (of approx the right age) and Alexander Thomson living at a couple of Aberdeenshire addresses - again too much of an assumption, but maybe worth keeping in mind.

When Dorothy and her siblings and parents are living at 22c Manor Avenue in 1975, at no 41 there's a family of Thomsons, including an Alexander - but it's a very common name.

Joseph and Margaret (nee Milne) are also at 22c Manor Avenue in 1960. In 1955 they're at 27 Logie Avenue.

_______________

Grasping at tenuous links to any Dorothy or Dolly - in case she's not a relative but only a friend - in 1960 at no 18 Manor Avenue there are Dorothy and Charlotte Ross, and no 24 there are Dorothy J and Alexander McKenzie.

The McKenzies are still at no 24 in 1975 (when Margaret and Joseph are still at 22) - now with children Gordon A, Helen, and James.

As neither the McKenzies nor Hurns have chhildren listed with them in 1965, but do in 1975, I assume that the parents would be roughly the same age, so likely to be friends - as well as living next door to each other.
So Dorothy McKenzie seems a good possibility for "Dolly" - and might even be a relative through the McKenzie side.

Thanks ArgyllGran, some great information there, thank you.
I'll mention it to my G Uncle, he did go up to Woodside to visit, but his memory not as good as it used to be.
Shame they can't remember Dolly's Surname.

Thanks again for help, much appreciated.

Meg

Thought I'd do a search on all Jane Hurn's children to see if any of them had a daughter called Iris. Looks like Gladys Margaret Hurn had a daughter Iris Elsie Paterson 1935. Could Gladys be Dolly?

I've also added a new photo to my Ancestry of Iris, Jane, Ron and Dolly.