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Erika H, Kay, ArgyllGran - thanks!

All I can add to the Ellis births is that it is not the Merthyr Tydfil one. I actually bought that birth certificate and found the parents in 1901 with 2 children and in 1911 with the same 2 children and recording a birth for a child that died. And there is a death to match the Merthyr Tydfil one.

I am as certain as I can be that Winifred's birth was not registered. I have exhausted all lines suggested. And that Winifred was the natural daughter of Martha and William. On the 1911 census Winifred's surname is Ellis; in 1929, just before her marriage she is on the electoral roll as Winnie Sargeant. At her marriage, she uses the name Stoddart.

I then contrasted this with Hilda. On 1911 census she is shown as Martha's niece. But when I bought the birth certificate, William is named as the father and the mother is named as Sarah Sargeant formerly Mogford, Martha's sister (hence "niece") Except Sarah had died in London some 9 years earlier! And on Martha's death, Hilda is the declarant and states she is her daughter. So again, I think Hilda was the natural daughter of Martha and William.

But it will always be conjecture! If only Winifred had named her father of the marriage certificate. If only she had been the declarant on his death certificate instead of his brother, especially as he was living with her it seems.

I am glad I resurrected this thread with the small close-outs I made. And in particular for the newspaper article about the murder trial that Winifred was a witness at.

But I am going to mark this as answered because I don't think we will ever find the answer, brilliant as you all are!

Thank you all again

Jude