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Erika H, Kay, ArgyllGran - thanks!

All I can add to the Ellis births is that it is not the Merthyr Tydfil one. I actually bought that birth certificate and found the parents in 1901 with 2 children and in 1911 with the same 2 children and recording a birth for a child that died. And there is a death to match the Merthyr Tydfil one.

I am as certain as I can be that Winifred's birth was not registered. I have exhausted all lines suggested. And that Winifred was the natural daughter of Martha and William. On the 1911 census Winifred's surname is Ellis; in 1929, just before her marriage she is on the electoral roll as Winnie Sargeant. At her marriage, she uses the name Stoddart.

I then contrasted this with Hilda. On 1911 census she is shown as Martha's niece. But when I bought the birth certificate, William is named as the father and the mother is named as Sarah Sargeant formerly Mogford, Martha's sister (hence "niece") Except Sarah had died in London some 9 years earlier! And on Martha's death, Hilda is the declarant and states she is her daughter. So again, I think Hilda was the natural daughter of Martha and William.

But it will always be conjecture! If only Winifred had named her father of the marriage certificate. If only she had been the declarant on his death certificate instead of his brother, especially as he was living with her it seems.

I am glad I resurrected this thread with the small close-outs I made. And in particular for the newspaper article about the murder trial that Winifred was a witness at.

But I am going to mark this as answered because I don't think we will ever find the answer, brilliant as you all are!

Thank you all again

Jude

Yes, that's definitely Lucy's death.

She and Walter were at 138 Industry Street on 1901 census.

How sad - a whole little family begun and ended within three years.


[But of course not at all relevant to Jude's query! ]

Name Lucy Ellis
Death Age 31
Record Type Burial
Birth Date abt 1871
Death Date 1902
Burial Date 2 May 1902
Burial Place Sheffield, St Mary, Walkley, Yorkshire, England
Address: 138 Industry Street

Name Waltu Scott Ellis
Death Age 35
Record Type Burial
Birth Date abt 1868
Death Date 1903
Burial Date 27 Nov 1903
Burial Place Sheffield, St Mary, Walkley, Yorkshire, England
Address; Greenhow Street - Surgical Home

Name Walter Scott Ellis
Gender Male
Marriage Age 31
Record Type Marriage
Birth Date abt 1869
Marriage Date 26 Dec 1900
Marriage Place Sheffield, St John the Baptist, Owlerton, Yorkshire, England
Parish as it Appears Owlerton
Father Lette Ellis...Schoolmaster........................................s/be SETH
Spouse Lucy Ellis
Father: John Thomas Ellis (Deceased) Silversmith


Winifred Ellis
Birth
unknown
Death
2 Oct 1903
Burial
Burngreave Cemetery
Sheffield, Metropolitan Borough of Sheffield, South Yorkshire, England
Plot
Section C3, Grave 10
Memorial ID
282805378 ·
Gravesite Details
Age: 13 month, Death date listed may be the interment date

That looks likely to be correct. Deaths have to be registered within 5 days - births within 6 weeks.

Re that Winifred registered in Ecclesall , with probable parents Walter and Lucy :

Possible death:

ELLIS, WINIFRED 1
GRO Reference: 1903 S Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C Page 319

and possible death of her mother - if somehow registered before Winifred's birth was registered ?? :-S Could be just a day's difference.

ELLIS, LUCY 31
GRO Reference: 1902 J Quarter in ECCLESALL BIERLOW Volume 09C Page 207

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
ELLIS, WINIFRED HUGHES
GRO Reference: 1902 M Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 576
ELLIS, WINIFRED LLOYD.

GRO Reference: 1902 S Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL Volume 11A Page 832
ELLIS, WINIFRED ELLIS

GRO Reference: 1902 S Quarter in ECCLESALL BIERLOW Volume 09C Page 436
ELLIS, WINIFRED BEATRICE MAYNARD .

GRO Reference: 1902 S Quarter in EDMONTON Volume 03A Page 450
ELLIS, WINIFRED CORON GRAHAM .

GRO Reference: 1902 J Quarter in EDMONTON Volume 03A Page 390
ELLIS, WINIFRED JANE WILLIAMS.

GRO Reference: 1902 S Quarter in PWLLHELI Volume 11B Page 409
ELLIS, WINIFRED KATE APPLETON.

GRO Reference: 1902 S Quarter in FULHAM Volume 01A Page 357
ELLIS, WINIFRED MARTHA HARDWICK .

GRO Reference: 1902 D Quarter in OLDHAM Volume 08D Page 677
ELLIS, WINIFRED MARY LEIGH PARRY .

GRO Reference: 1902 M Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 592
ELLIS, WINIFRED MAUD COOPER .

GRO Reference: 1902 D Quarter in ST OLAVES BERMONDSEY Volume 01D Page 277.

These are all Ellis Winifred births for all Q of 1902.

The GRO does not include ‘MMN’ for illegitimate births……… it would not make sense ;-) ;-) ;-)

There was a big movement in the early 1900s by churchy people to take city oprhans or children of single parent and place the with fosters the parent could still work ,pay towards upkeep..these children were in many cases become "home children",,,some were placed miles from birth places,,,,,,,,,ours was placed over 100 miles from London,,,,,,1901--1911.


DNA could get the lead,

MMN isn't usually shown on the transcription for an illegitimate birth - though of course the mother could have lied, and claimed to be married.

Maybe these could be the parents of that child ??? :

Marriages Dec 1900 (>99%)
Ellis Lucy Ecclesall B. 9c 652
Ellis Walter Scott Ecclesall B. 9c 652


Lucy Ellis
in the Sheffield and Rotherham, Yorkshire, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1948
Name Lucy Ellis (age 28)
Gender Female
Record Type Marriage
Marriage Date 26 Dec 1900
Marriage Place Sheffield, St John the Baptist, Owlerton, Yorkshire, England
Parish as it Appears Owlerton
Father John Thomas Ellis, deceased.
Spouse Walter Scott Ellis

Walter died in 1903.

ELLIS, WALTER SCOTT 35
GRO Reference: 1903 D Quarter in ECCLESALL BIERLOW Volume 09C Page 241


Can't see Lucy in 1911, nor a remarriage.

ELLIS, WINIFRED ELLIS
GRO Reference: 1902 S Quarter in ECCLESALL BIERLOW Volume 09C Page 436.

to assumed single mother and right reg Q for august birth.

Ooh Kay,

That's interesting. I have the 1897 report but I had never seen the witness report. A widely covered murder case it seems!

Two newspaper reports ,

1897 South Wales Echo.25th Nove 1897,
The article refers to ,
Martha Jane Stoddart,, Drunken ,Landlady of the Richard //Rickard Arms Trebanog,

Westen Mail Cardiff.
23rd Feb 1923,

Wiitness report of,

Winifred Florence Stoddart
age 20,
8 Uskside
Caerleon.

pay to view in full.at FMP.

Yep Erika H...

Hilda Marjorie is on the 1911 census with Winifred. Shown as niece of Martha.

Her birth certificate has father as William Sargent (also on the census) and the mother as Sarah formerly Mogford. Martha's sister. Who it transpires had died in London nine years before Hilda was born. Informant was S Sargent of 8 Uskside Caerleon, Martha's address....another lie.

Bertie is Martha's one surviving child from the marriage to Joseph.

Virtue is Harriet's daughter. Harriet being another sister of Martha.

Quite simply she seems to have been a pathogenic liar so I am resigned to never finding out about Winifred's birth. I don't think she was registered but if she was she could be under any name whatsoever! And by that I mean first,second and surnames



:-0

Was there some earlier speculation about Hilda?

SARGENT, HILDA MARJORIE MOGFORD
GRO Reference: 1908 D Quarter in NEWPORT, MON Volume 11A Page 212


STODDART, BERTIE WYNDHAM MOGFORD
GRO Reference: 1892 S Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 532


SARGEANT, VIRTUE MAY MOGFORD
GRO Reference: 1891 S Quarter in BRIDGEND Volume 11A Page 744


Name Harriet Lewis.......widow
Gender Female
Marriage Age 32
Record Type Marriage
Birth Date 1851
Marriage Date 24 Dec 1883
Marriage Place Newport Christchurch, Monmouthshire, Wales
Father William Mogford
Spouse Robert Sargent

Yes Erika H

Somewhere in the previous 6 pages I purchased the 1939 register (wasn't free then). And it confirmed my MIL's assertion that she was born 08 August because that was my FIL's birthday too. So it had to be 1902.

What helps to confuse everything is the introduction of the name May everywhere!

Winifred Florence, the mother, is only ever referred to as Winifred Florence before her marriage. Her husband's first wife, who died, was Esther May. So on my MIL's birth certificate, the father mixed up his wife's name! And when she died, he added the name May.

So all I can tell you is she was supposedly Winifred Florence Ellis and that she was adopted having been born in Barry. But as the story gathered pace, it transpired that Martha was a bit of a liar!!! So, all names and places can be taken with a pinch of salt :-)

When was Winfred supposed to have been born?

ADDED

For INFO

1939 Register
30 Bolt Street, Newport, Newport C.B., Monmouthshire, Wales
John J Mead 15 Oct 1894 Male Arp Services Full Time Married 273 1
Winifred F Mead 08 Aug 1902 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 273 2
Winifred May (Mary) Woods (Mead) 03 Aug 1930 Female At School Single 273 3

Update 01 December 2025.

I don't expect anyone to re-read this equivalent of War and Peace and I am no nearer to sorting the original posed question regarding a birth entry for Winifred Florence Ellis/Sargent/Stoddart.

But I have closed a loop or so.....

In 1911, Joseph Stoddart boarding as a miner put married 22 years 3 children of whom 2 have died and 1 is living. Martha and Joseph married on 03 May 1888 which fits the 22 years. I already knew that a daughter had been born in 1889 who died in 1891 and that they had a son who died in 1972. But having read this thread today, I found the other child who had died. Obadiah born 14 June 1888 and who died 7 hours later (a premature birth). Explains the marriage just six weeks earlier.

So Martha didn't desert 3 children because two had already died. And the surviving son was an engineer of sorts.

And reading the three newspaper reports posted above, on 07 May 1901, Joseph had her charged with assault while she was drunk (a common occurrence it seemed). She retaliated and on 18 July she charged Joseph with cruelty. He agreed to maintain Martha but wanted custody of Bertie. She must have left the Rickards Arms and went to live with her sister and brother-in-law, the brother of William. The it is reported in September 1903, that maintenance was withdrawn after Martha and William were shown to be co-habiting. By then they were living in Christchurch in Newport. Prior to that they had rented in Witham Street in Newport. A neighbour was a witness at the trial. So it doesn't say when they were at Witham Street or when they moved to Christchurch. But given that she must have been pregnant with Winifred - assuredly - and no mention is made of that, then it must have been around March/April 1902 before she started to show???

Which then lends itself to question where the birthplace of Barry came from in 1911? Another fabrication maybe? In 1921, she stated the birthplace of Winifred was "unknown".

But it doesn't help with trying to find that same needle in the haystack :-)

Yes, that's about the size of things, lol...

(that ol' thing, where something usually turns up that proves it!)

Chris :)

Chris...we are so near!!!

July 1901 Joseph agrees maintenance to Martha in return for custody of Bertie. She goes to stay with Harriet and meets up with William who is lodging with his brother and his wife.

She and William "get together" ...she conceives Winifred...they move to Witham Street Newport (funny I have Hyde and Hunt ancestors there already) and then to Christchurch before moving to Uskside. Winifred is not registered (guess she never needed a passport)...

And then Joseph catches up with her....

I'll never prove it..no birth.....

But I'll bet I am right!! :-)

No Chris.. I think it's her in all three and the W Stoddart is an error. First one he pays her maintenance but gets custody of Bertie. Then other two she's cohabiting with William Sargeant and husband seeks to stop paying. William was from Christchurch.

Clincher is, sister Harriet , married to william's brother, Robert , lived in tin works row, llanharan (3 miles from Pontyclun)

Only missing thing is that by then Winifred had been born....would that have been mentioned?

Maybe a visit to the library to check electoral rolls for Witham Street...

Jude