Find Ancestors

Hi could someone please help me to work this puzzle out ? My late grandfather born Herbert Victor Howard {15/11/1895} cannot be found anywhere in the Births, have his Marriage cert ,also his death is regd.. now because I dont Know where he was born in uk {had suggestions of Bermondsey/Battersea } I have taken his fathers name from the Marriage cert Frederick Charles Howard occupation Butcher residence Colchester Essex , & tried to find Herbert on1901 uk Census's, No luck , found out Herbert had a brother Fred, Half Brother Cecil... Herbert changed his name to Albert at some point before getting married in Sept 1917, Think this is his father Frederick who appears on the 1891 Census :
Frederick Howard {head} 29 Butcher.. Born Henley Oxford 1862..
Martha wife 26 1865 St Johns wood London
Martha Ellen 3 1888 Battersea surrey
Mable Florence 3/12 1891 Battersea Surrey
Dorothy Beatrice 3/12 1891 Battersea Surrey
{+servant + Lodger}

Frederick is also on the 1871 census aged 9
parents Thomas 1811 age 60
Ann 1822 Age 49
all 4 children born in Henley between 1859 1870

This is the hard part that does my head in .. Dorothy beatrice 1891 .. married James Denyer.. My Grandad married James's sister Frances H Denyer..{Clewer Windsor Berks}.. Is Dorothys Dad Frederick also my Grandads Dad ? it could be as the Name & occupation are the same as that on the marriage cert & Herbert would be on the 1911 Census, & i dont have Access to this can anyone please help me here with 1911 look up ? & anything else that may help here please
thanks Caz

Slow down. Lets start with what you know for certain.

He married - where & when & To whom?
How old was he?
What was his fathers name and occupation?
answer :Frederick Charles Howard occupation Butcher residence Colchester Essex
=======================================

This half brother Cecil that changed his name to Albert.

What sort of half? Fathers child or mothers?

Hi Minnie Thanks for your reply, sorry i get a bit confused with this branch of tree
this is what i know: My Grandfather born Herbert Victor Howard on 15th Nov 1985 place unknown,Possibly Bermondsey Surrey he later changed his name too Albert Victor Howard as this is on his marriage cert he married Frances H Denyer in Sept 1917 at st Andrews Parish Church Clewer Windsor Berkshire.... His Fathers Name on Cert is Frederick Charles Howard Occupation Butcher, Res Colchester Essex .. Im looking for Alberts Place of Birth & Both his Parents The half brother i just dont know a thing about i got told this recently ,
thanks
Caz {in Australia}

1901 East Batersea London.District 14 image 33
Martha age 37 married char woman.
Dorothy B 10
Mable F 10
Frederick C 8
Ablert Deaton 5 look at original and it says Albert Victor.born Battersea

1891 It doesn't say Dorothy beatrice servant and lodger it says daughter the lodger it says was Ada Bollon.

Say I would say yes Dorothy and Herbert /Albert are brother and sister.
Herbert Victor howard J/F/M 1896 registered Fulham greater London V1a Page 194.
Maryb

P.S a tree on Ancestry has 8 children to Thomas Howard 1813 and Anne Martha 1822-1880 nee Clements

Hey Thanks maryB
reading my request sounds more confusing than what it really is! Im sure you are on the same level as me as i guessed Dorothy & Albert were related.. also i notice that Dorothy b and Mable F are Twins,.. i can remember being told there were twins on grandads side of the family.. seems about right, Dorothy went on to marry James Denyer, Albert married his Sister Frances H Denyer ..... i will look at the tree you mentioned as well ... still need to find Fred & Cecil
thanks MaryB for helping me out ,
Caz

1891 England Census
Name: Martha Ellen Mary Howard
Age: 3
Estimated birth year: abt 1888
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Frederick
Mother's Name: Martha
Gender: Female
Where born: Battersea, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Battersea
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Wandsworth
Sub-registration district: West Battersea
ED, institution, or vessel: 36
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Frederick Howard 29
Martha Howard 26
Martha Ellen Mary Howard 3
Mable Florence Howard 3/12
Dorothy Beatrice Howard 3/12
Ada Bollon 4 (nurse girl)
Emma Chapman 66 (lodger)




Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 435; Folio 75; Page 12; GSU roll: 6095545.

Sorry MaryB
Looks like we have found Frederick aged 8,
need to find Cecil he had connections with St Osyth think thats near Jaywick sands or Clacton on Sea Essex
Caz

Thanks Choccy, also MaryB the birth Reg for Herbert Victor Howard J/F/M/ 1896 would that be the one as he was born O/N/D 1895 , I guess they could have regd him the following year,! I had looked at that one so many times ..Think ill go with it !
Thanks Caz
Freewheel,I have been on that site before always brings up a negative Thank you anyway & i see youve gone and deleted...no worries.
thanks Caz

this could be the Colchester connection -


Marriages Sep 1901 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ayling Albert Edward Colchester 4a 1255
DIXEY Mary Ethel Colchester 4a 1255
******HOWARD Frederick Charles Colchester 4a 1255
******Kidd Rosetta Colchester 4a 1255



1911 census -

HOUSEHOLD HOWARD FREDRICK CHARLES M 1879 32 Colchester Essex
HOUSEHOLD HOWARD ROSETTA F 1880 31 Colchester Essex


No credits to view.


Maybe a coincidence.

Think that's this one who married Rosetta -

1901 England Census
Name: Frederick C Howard
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1879
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Louisa
Gender: Male
Where born: Halstead, Essex, England

Civil parish: Colchester
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Magdalene
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Colchester
Sub-registration district: Colchester, Third Ward
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 203
Household Members: Name Age
Louisa Howard 47
Frederick C Howard 22
Ethel Howard 20
Frank Howard 17
Lily Howard 15
Ada W Howard 6




Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 1711; Folio: 21; Page: 33.

This isn't helping in your search, but here's Mabel's marriage, if you haven't got it -

Father Frederick is still a butcher.


London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
Name: Mabel Florence Howard
Age: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1891
Spouse Name: Edward Arthur Smith
Spouse Age: 23
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 31 Jul 1915
Parish: St Jude, East Brixton
County: Middlesex
Borough: Lambeth
Father Name: Frederick Charles Howard
Spouse Father Name: John Dann Smith



Source Citation: London Metropolitan Archives, Saint Jude, East Brixton, Register of marriages, P85/JUD/A/02, Item 005

Hi choccy
Both are close enough for the 'Colchester Connectiion" But no mention of half brother Cecil, Alberts other brother Fred was in engineering, Albert was in the Suffolk reg as a Bomb Instructor in ww1, {He was also a Valet to a Dr lognenotti, so im told} Do feel drawn toward the 1891 census with his Father Frederick Occupation Butcher.. I love all this family history although it drives me crazy at times !! & time gets away to quickly,
Anyway im off t bed in a few secs as its almost 12:15 am out here in Australia.. will catch up tomorrow thanks for all your help .
Caz

1911 census transcription details for: 74 Garfield Road

National Archive Reference:

RG14PN3489 RG78PN130 RD40 SD1 ED27 SN49


Reg. District: Kingston Sub District: Wimbledon
Parish: Wimbledon Enum. District: 27
Address: 74 Garfield Road
County: Surrey
MILLS, Martha Wife Twice Married F 50 1861 Walworth Lon
MILLS, Cecil Son M 6 1905 School Lwr Tooting Lon
MILLS, Sidney Son M 4 1907 Lwr Tooting Lon
HOWARD, Dorothy Daughter Single F 20 1891 Packer Battersea Lon
HOWARD, Mabel Daughter Single F 20 1891 Box Sticker Battersea Lon
HOWARD, Frederick Son Single M 18 1893 Improver Battersea Lon
HOWARD, Victor Son Single M 15 1896 Lather Boy Shepherds Bush
STRATTON, Arthur Nephew M 9 1902 School Lwr Tooting Lon
ELCOCK, Walter Nurse Child M 2 1909 Chelsea Lon
BYRNES, Violet Nurse Child F 0 (9 MONTHS) 1911 Clapham Lon


Maureen

Thanks for that one Choccy, no i havent got it every little bit helps & is appreciated,
night now
Caz

MaureeninNY
WOW... Looks a sure winner !! youre a diamond!
but hey i really must close now will catch you all again in the morning,
night,
Big Thanks Caz x

1911

is this Frederick (says he is a Widower!)


HOWARD FREDERICK (RG14PN266 RD3 SD2 ED46 SN1)
Institution name Rowton House Lodging House Rowton House Lodging House
Address 221 HAMMERSMITH ROAD W County London
District Fulham Subdistrict South Hammersmith
Enumeration District 46 Parish Hammersmith



WALKER, JOHN STAFFORD RESIDENT SINGLE M 55 MESSENGER WOLVERHAMPTON BERSK
MARTIN, WILLIAM RESIDENT SINGLE M 50 MOTOR CLEANER LONDON MIDDX
BROADHURST, WILLIAM RESIDENT WIDOWER M 60 PAPERHANGER OXFORD
PIGGOTT, ROBERT RESIDENT SINGLE M 35 TAILOR WAREHAM NORFOLK
******HOWARD, FREDERICK RESIDENT WIDOWER M 49 BUTCHER HENLEY ON THAMES OXFORD ********************
RILEY, PHILLIP RESIDENT SINGLE M 49 TAILOR BIRMINGHAM WARWICK
WOODHEAD, CHARLES RESIDENT MARRIED M 57 ART DEALER DUMBARTON RESIDENT
IRVING, WILLIAM RESIDENT SINGLE M 45 CARMAN WICKHAM SUFFOLK
GROVER, WILLIAM RESIDENT SINGLE M 38 GENERAL LABOURER KENSINGTON MIDDX
CULLINGWORTH, WILLIAM RESIDENT SINGLE M 35 TAILORS CATTER CHAPPEL ALLERTON YORKS
FRENCH, SAMUEL RESIDENT WIDOWER M 45 FLORIST NEW CROSS KENT
WATSON, GEORGE RESIDENT MARRIED M 33 THEATRE CLERK BICKLEY KENT
LETHBRIDGE, MIDLAND RESIDENT SINGLE M 49 NEWS VENDOR PLYMOUTH DEVON
GOODE, HERBERT RESIDENT MARRIED M 42 HOTEL PORTER BLUNTISHAM HUNTS
OAKES, GEORGE KNITTON RESIDENT SINGLE M 48 COAL MERCHANT CITY OF LONDON MIDDX
O'BRIEN, JOHN RESIDENT WIDOWER M 43 SCAFFOLDER FULHAM MIDDX
CURRIE, RICHARD RESIDENT MARRIED M 41 CELLARMAN PIMLICO MIDDX
MATTHEWS, WILLIAM RESIDENT SINGLE M 21 PHOTOGRAPHY BARNES SURREY
CLARK, GEORGE RESIDENT MARRIED M 37 GAME DEALER LITTLEHAMPTON SUSSEX
ALLEN, WILLIAM JOHN RESIDENT WIDOWER M 40 SHOP ASSISTANT SHEPHERDS BUSH MIDDX
YOUNG, RICHARD RESIDENT SINGLE M 30 SHOWMAN HAMMERSMITH MIDDX
HEWETT, CHARLES RESIDENT SINGLE M 45 HOTEL PORTER BLANDFORD DORSET
POWER, JAMES RESIDENT SINGLE M 50 FURNITURE PORTER BOSTON LINCOLNS
ROBERT, ERNEST RESIDENT SINGLE M 27 ARTIST CAMDEN GLOUC
MORRISON, GEORGE RESIDENT SINGLE M 33 SEAMAN LIVERPOOL FRANCE
DOISEOTT, ARTHUR RESIDENT MARRIED M 47 HAIR DRESSER DUBLIN RESIDENT
COOPER, GEORGE RESIDENT WIDOWER M 60 MOTOR ENGINEER NORWICK NORFOLK
CHAMBERS, WILLIAM ALFRED RESIDENT SINGLE M 36 WAITER LONDONDERRY RESIDENT
WHITER, HENRY RESIDENT SINGLE M 25 STOKER KINGSTON SURREY
WHITE, FREDERICK RESIDENT MARRIED M 44 HOUSE PAINTER WESTMINSTER MIDDX

I wonder about this marriage:
Name: Frederick Howard Occ:Butcher
Age: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1863
Spouse Name: Martha Bolton
Spouse Age: 23
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 26 Dec 1887
Parish: St Mary, Staines
County: Surrey
Borough: Spelthorne
Father Name: Thomas Howard Occ:Gardener
Spouse Father Name: William Bolton Occ:Ostler
Witnesses were Philip and Elizabeth Pearce

Maureen

Hi that could be Fred and Martha nee Bolton is correct as on 1891 census says Ada bollon a servant could be Martha Bolton's sister mistranscribed.
The date fits with Martha Ellen Mary Howard being born about 1888.

Maryb.

So there is Cecil Mills born 1907 on 1911 census half brother to Herbert Victor.
Martha Howard married William Mills in Wandsworth J/A/S 1909 after both children were born V1d P 1414.
Cecil William Mills sept 1904 Wandsworth 1d 675
Maryb

Battersea is in Wandsworth RD

Births Dec 1887 (>99%)
Howard Martha Ellen M Wandsworth 1d 605

Births Dec 1890 (>99%)
Howard Dorothy Beatrice Wandsworth 1d 566
Howard Mabel Florence Wandsworth 1d 566

Births Mar 1893 (>99%)
Howard Frederick Charles Wandsworth 1d 702

I only found one Fred* Howard + Martha marr - Staines 1886q4 which didn't seem likely until I saw Maureen's post. There is a
M-1887q2 Frederick Howard St Saviour 1d 188

FreeBMD has

Marriages Jun 1887 (49%)
Perham William Henry St.Saviour 1d 188
WOODS Sarah Letitia St. Saviour 1d 188

but they only got images for half the index a couple of months back, so if Martha's MS starts with A thru mid-L, we'll have to wait till they get that transcribed to see who's the missing bride.

I did come across another odd marr whose relevance escapes me:

Marriages Dec 1873 (>99%)
CLAY Daniel St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 701
Denyer Martha St.Geo.H.Sq. 1a 701
Groom Catharine Susan St Geo H Sq 1a 701
Howard Frederick St Geo H Sq 1a 701

****************************************

1881 Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
Thos. BOLTON Head M Male 51 London, London, Middlesex, England Upholsterer
A. BOLTON Wife M Female 48 Devon, England
Annie BOLTON Daur U Female 19 London, London, Middlesex, England Carpet Sewer
Martha BOLTON Daur U Female 17 London, London, Middlesex, England Carpet Sewer ?
Ellen BOLTON Daur Female 15 London, London, Middlesex, England Carpet Sewer ?
Louisa BOLTON Daur Female 10 London, London, Middlesex, England Scholar
Hannah BOLTON Daur Female 6 London, London, Middlesex, England Scholar
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Dwelling 24 Greville St
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341074
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0342 / 108
Page Number 44