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Heh, lancashire ann, lots o' celebrating and late regs in your line then. ;)
Daniel -- the Randall+Hull marriage certificate -- get it!
You gotta have those links in the chains. And since this is your first expedition into it all, do it up right and then it will be done forever.
(To do it up completely right, for the books, you need FVR's birth certificate too, but for present purposes, you can take that as read, I do think.)
Then, barring any weirdness (like his father being Mr. Deceased), you will be on sure footing when you start going back.
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not sure my bank account does much celebrating - our son's birthday is actually 25th Dec AND we have a grandchild due next week plus brother-in-law today and great niece 19th (and would have been mum's tomorrow!). 2nd son did not quite make Dec (30th Nov)
Daniel
I agree with Janey, the only way to proceed is to get that marriage certificate. It is much more fun knowing that you are following the right line and easier too. You may be lucky after that as there is quite a bit of good info on lancs family on a couple of sites.
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Daniel - just to tidy up a few loose ends.
You should get Fred + Jane's m cert - it's not so much for Fred's dad who, thanks to Margaret's donation of 1911, we can assume, was Albert.
[NB Note that Fred's pob=Denton is in Ashton-u-L RD]
It's really for Jane's dad, where we've got a couple of competing choices for Jane.
It's easiest to get this cert from the GRO at:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
First time, you have to register, then you can place the order online.
If you've got the reference (you have), it'll cost 7 GBP (post incl.).
The reference info you need is one of their names, the year, quarter, registration district, vol #. & page #.
In future, you can look these refs up yourself at:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/
You can search - coverage for marrs thru 1937 is pretty good (volounteers are transcribing the original written index, which runs 1837-1983, and that's abt how far they've gotten).
If you need a date they haven't transcribed yet, you'll have to take their "view images" link, and look it up the old-fashioned way.
Here's a typical hit:
Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page
Marriages Mar 1920 (>99%)
Randall Fred Hull Fylde 8e 1471 [info box] [spectacles]
If you click on the page # link, you'll see all the names from that page.
Hull Jane Randall Fylde 8e 1471
McMillan Caroline M Sagar Fylde 8e 1471
Randall Fred Hull Fylde 8e 1471
Sagar John R McMillan Fylde 8e 1471
Here, there's no bother sorting out who married whom, but it can be problematic thru 1911 which was when they started adding the spouse's surname.
The "(>99%)" indicates how much of this quarter has been transcribed - essentially all here;
the info box is for you to add comments or corrections; and the spectacles lets you view the original yourself to check on the transcription.
The final link is the rego district "Fylde". Click on this, then the more info "here" link, and it tells you the villages, etc that were in Fylde RD,
as well as the subdistricts over time:
Blackpool; Blackpool North; Blackpool South; Fleetwood; Kirkham; Lytham; Lytham St. Annes; Poulton le Fylde
and at the foot, where the registers are now:
Registers now divided between Blackpool and Lancashire [i.e.,Preston] districts.
If you don't have the GRO ref, but have a pretty good idea of what you're after, the GRO will look it up for you, and charge you 10 GBP for the cert.
So what do you do if you've only a vague idea, or you want a cert after 1984.
Look it up on Ancestry, so say I want your b.cert - I look you up, specifying mum's MS, and get:
View Record Name Date of Registration District County View Image Order Record
View Record Daniel xxx xxxxx mm year city Lancashire
(As you'll guess from the detail provided, I don't have a sub with Ancetry.)
Now I click on the shopping basket, and read of the ref - it doesn't always put it all in - sometimes you have to hover over the basket and read info in the bottom bar of your browser).
I could order the cert thru Ancestry, but they'll charge me 20 GBP for it, so I back out.
At one point you asked "can i just ring up the local registry office and ask them for it?".
In this case, if your local RO is Blackpool, the answer for your b.cert is yes, and it'll cost 7 GBP - some local RO's do tack on extras for postage, etc.
A geographically big RD will have subdistricts where one can rego stuff. When their birth register is full, they'll send it into the local head office.
Every quarter, the local head office sends in copies of its BMDs to the GRO, formerly on London, but now in Southport.
I don't know what they do today, but in the old days, the copies sent to the GRO would be handwritten or maybe typed.
Now your b.rego in Blackpool or wherever was probably done by a parent, and they'll have signed it as an informant,
so if Blackpool RO provides original images of the rego, you'ld have (yet another) instance of your parent's signature.
Not all local ROs can or do provide original images. Birmingham does (I'm sure that brings joy to your heart).
Marrs are a bit different. Initially, only CofE, jews and quakers were trusted to keep registers, so say, an RC marr, would need the registrar to attend, so the couple could sign his register (which would also contain register office marrs).
This changed in 1898, and all sorts could keep registers, although RCs were often not authorized.
Anyway, if you got marr in a CofE church, you'ld sign the rego there, and the vicar would send a copy to the local RO, who in turn would send a copy of the copy to the GRO.
When the register got full, it was sent to the local RO, who usually archived it in the county records office (in Preston).
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So you can buy certs from the GRO or the appropriate local RO. One difficulty abt local ROs is redistricting. Take Fylde as an example. It got split between Blackpool and Fleetwood in 1974, then later Fleetwood RD was incorporated into Lancashire RD, so even if you know the rego was in Fylde, you don't know now who's got the register.
Also, recall how the local ROs regos will be organized - they'll have registers from subdistricts, and registers from different churches, which is quite different from the GROs organization, since it gets a whole bunch from each RD,
so if the local RO has a local index, it must contain difft info from the GRO's if they're ever going to find owt.
Some local ROs have online indices - see:
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/index.php?form_action=local
in particular:
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
In general, it's always worth checking both the local and the GRO indices, hoping the volounteers have transcribed your bit.
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1925
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
RENDALL Frederick Vernon Fleetwood Preston HULL FLW/42/14
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1893
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HULL Jane Gertrude Kirkham Preston KH/34/56
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1893
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HULL Jane Fleetwood Preston GARVEY FLW/4/5
Now for plain Jane, we can see if she's got any sibs:
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1889
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HULL Alice Poulton-le-Fylde Blackpool GARVEY PLF/57/16
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1890
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HULL Isabella Fleetwood Preston GARVEY FLW/1/76
Now these 2 sis should appear on the 1891 census (census date is end of Mar / begin of April for 1851-1911 - before it was 6/6/1841)
There's limited free censuses - 1881 is free at:
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=census/search_census.asp
and at Ancestry.
There's partial transcriptions for Lancs 1861 + 1891 at:
http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Fortunately the 8% of 1891 does catch plain Jane's sibs:
1891
Piece: RG12/3456 Place: Fylde -Lancashire Enumeration District: 4
Civil Parish: Thornton Ecclesiastical Parish: St Peter
Folio: 72 Page: 16 Schedule: 112
Address: 16 Rhyl Street
Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
HULL Alice Wife M F 28 Lancashire - Bury
HULL Alice Dau - F 1 Lancashire - Fleetwood
HULL Isabella Dau - F 5m Lancashire - Fleetwood
Jane from Ormskirk does seem less likely, being S of the Ribble.
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1892
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HULL Jane Tarleton Preston TAR/15/4
We can check that Tarleton is in Ormskirk RD (as outlined above). Tarleton is abt 15km out of Southport, where the road to Preston crosses the Douglas.
However, considering this Jane does provide a chance to illustrate another resource.
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/indexp.html
Baptism: 9 Oct 1892 Holy Trinity, Tarleton, Lancashire, England
Jane Hull - Daughter of John Hull & Mary Alice
Abode: Tarleton
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: Robert C Fletcher Rector
Register: Baptisms 1888 - 1900, Page 19, Entry 150
Source: LDS Film 1849640
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Thank you once again for your help, just to let you know i have taken your advice and have ordered the cirtificate, so hopefully will be here soon. Then I will be able to see if albert is really the Dad of Fred.
Oooo what an interesting turn that Janes mother was from Bury, but i cant seem to find the the DOB for John. Also how can i found out the date of death for Jane and her sisters and well as Freds brothers and sisters.
Thanks again!!
xx
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Assuming Albert is Fred's dad, you'll be wanting to check out the registers now at Tameside from:
http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/
Tameside now covers parts of the old rego districts of Ashton (Denton) and Stockport (Hyde).
If Jane's dad be Thomas, then you're looking at Alice Hull MS Garvey and, in that case, you can check the marr of Alice's parents at:
http://www.bmsgh.org/staffsbmd/index.html
and Thomas's mum and step-dad at:
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Fleetwood/index.html
Once you've got parentage settled, you really have to get access to the 1841-1901 censuses. There are several routes. You can subscribe to Ancestry, Find My Past, or GR gold. None of these options is particularly cheap. You can usually access Ancestry thru, well maybe not your local library, but I'll bet Blackpool main lib have it (library use only). You can also access it thru an LDS FHC - these are scattered around the world, e.g.,
Warren Drive
Cleveleys
Blackpool, Lancashire, England
Phone: 44 (0) 1253 863868
Hours: Tu 7pm-9pm; W, Th, Sat 10am-12pm. Other times by prior appointment only.
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp
They usually have microfilm of the local old parish registers, and you can rent film of all sorts of stuff to view there. Just as an example, say young Albert went to Canada to farm in Saskatchewan (1000km from the nearest fishery); you can rent the film(s) of the Homestead grant records of the various Albert Randalls that got land there. For Lancashire, what they don't hold, you can probably get cheaper with a trip to the Lancs record office in Preston, or maybe (I'm guessing so phone first) Manchester Central Library. However, it certainly is an option if you have to scrabble around in Staffs.
Some of their films, the LDS have extracted the key info from, and placed on the IGI:
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true
In addition to extracted records, folk contribute records to the IGI. Here the quality is variable and, unfortunately, it's very hard to judge that quality, so you should try and verify contributed submissions first. An extracted record shows a batch #, and usually a source # - drilling down via the source # shows where the record was extracted from. The batch # does this too, but the LDS treat this as semi-cryptic. A batch # usually identifies a particular parish register, so it will be limited to, say, weddings at St Wilfred's at Widdecombe in the Wold, or whatever, in a particular time span. There is a partial key at:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers.htm
Results for: Lancashire, England, British Isles
Father: Thomas Garvey, Mother: Eliza
Exact Spelling: Off
Batch Number: p007053
International Genealogical Index / British Isles - 8
Select records to download - (50 maximum)
3. EMMA GARVEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 04 MAR 1858
4. EMMA GARVEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 16 APR 1862 Saint Mary, Bury, Lancashire, England
5. MARY JANE GARVEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 09 OCT 1861
6. MARY JANE GARVEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 16 APR 1862 Saint Mary, Bury, Lancashire, England
7. ALICE GARVEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 16 JAN 1863
8. ALICE GARVEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 28 JAN 1863 Saint Mary, Bury, Lancashire, England
1. FREDERICK GARVEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 16 JAN 1863
2. FREDERICK GARVEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 28 JAN 1863 Saint Mary, Bury, Lancashire, England
One final tip - copy and paste everything (including this thread) into a file. I actually found Alice on the IGI first, then went back and redid the search, including details from her record in the search criteria, just so I could grab all the relevant info in one copy & paste. I also edited the paste slightly afterwards.
My preference is to paste stuff into a Notepad document (Notepad is under Start - All Programs - Accessories, although I've created a shortcut and stuck it on my desktop). Notepad is a really dumb word processor - but it's so dumb if I paste html buttons and other quirky stuff into it, it doesn't try to do anything with them, just extract any associated text, which is pretty much what I'ld like it to do. If I'm messing around with the file afterwards, I don't usually use notepad to do it - I'ld use Wordpad or Word.
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