Find Ancestors

Assuming Albert is Fred's dad, you'll be wanting to check out the registers now at Tameside from:
http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/
Tameside now covers parts of the old rego districts of Ashton (Denton) and Stockport (Hyde).

If Jane's dad be Thomas, then you're looking at Alice Hull MS Garvey and, in that case, you can check the marr of Alice's parents at:
http://www.bmsgh.org/staffsbmd/index.html
and Thomas's mum and step-dad at:
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Fleetwood/index.html

Once you've got parentage settled, you really have to get access to the 1841-1901 censuses. There are several routes. You can subscribe to Ancestry, Find My Past, or GR gold. None of these options is particularly cheap. You can usually access Ancestry thru, well maybe not your local library, but I'll bet Blackpool main lib have it (library use only). You can also access it thru an LDS FHC - these are scattered around the world, e.g.,

Warren Drive
Cleveleys
Blackpool, Lancashire, England
Phone: 44 (0) 1253 863868
Hours: Tu 7pm-9pm; W, Th, Sat 10am-12pm. Other times by prior appointment only.

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp

They usually have microfilm of the local old parish registers, and you can rent film of all sorts of stuff to view there. Just as an example, say young Albert went to Canada to farm in Saskatchewan (1000km from the nearest fishery); you can rent the film(s) of the Homestead grant records of the various Albert Randalls that got land there. For Lancashire, what they don't hold, you can probably get cheaper with a trip to the Lancs record office in Preston, or maybe (I'm guessing so phone first) Manchester Central Library. However, it certainly is an option if you have to scrabble around in Staffs.

Some of their films, the LDS have extracted the key info from, and placed on the IGI:

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true

In addition to extracted records, folk contribute records to the IGI. Here the quality is variable and, unfortunately, it's very hard to judge that quality, so you should try and verify contributed submissions first. An extracted record shows a batch #, and usually a source # - drilling down via the source # shows where the record was extracted from. The batch # does this too, but the LDS treat this as semi-cryptic. A batch # usually identifies a particular parish register, so it will be limited to, say, weddings at St Wilfred's at Widdecombe in the Wold, or whatever, in a particular time span. There is a partial key at:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers.htm


Results for: Lancashire, England, British Isles
Father: Thomas Garvey, Mother: Eliza
Exact Spelling: Off
Batch Number: p007053

International Genealogical Index / British Isles - 8
Select records to download - (50 maximum)
3. EMMA GARVEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 04 MAR 1858
4. EMMA GARVEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 16 APR 1862 Saint Mary, Bury, Lancashire, England

5. MARY JANE GARVEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 09 OCT 1861
6. MARY JANE GARVEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 16 APR 1862 Saint Mary, Bury, Lancashire, England

7. ALICE GARVEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 16 JAN 1863
8. ALICE GARVEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 28 JAN 1863 Saint Mary, Bury, Lancashire, England

1. FREDERICK GARVEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 16 JAN 1863
2. FREDERICK GARVEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 28 JAN 1863 Saint Mary, Bury, Lancashire, England


One final tip - copy and paste everything (including this thread) into a file. I actually found Alice on the IGI first, then went back and redid the search, including details from her record in the search criteria, just so I could grab all the relevant info in one copy & paste. I also edited the paste slightly afterwards.

My preference is to paste stuff into a Notepad document (Notepad is under Start - All Programs - Accessories, although I've created a shortcut and stuck it on my desktop). Notepad is a really dumb word processor - but it's so dumb if I paste html buttons and other quirky stuff into it, it doesn't try to do anything with them, just extract any associated text, which is pretty much what I'ld like it to do. If I'm messing around with the file afterwards, I don't usually use notepad to do it - I'ld use Wordpad or Word.

Thank you once again for your help, just to let you know i have taken your advice and have ordered the cirtificate, so hopefully will be here soon. Then I will be able to see if albert is really the Dad of Fred.

Oooo what an interesting turn that Janes mother was from Bury, but i cant seem to find the the DOB for John. Also how can i found out the date of death for Jane and her sisters and well as Freds brothers and sisters.

Thanks again!!
xx

So you can buy certs from the GRO or the appropriate local RO. One difficulty abt local ROs is redistricting. Take Fylde as an example. It got split between Blackpool and Fleetwood in 1974, then later Fleetwood RD was incorporated into Lancashire RD, so even if you know the rego was in Fylde, you don't know now who's got the register.
Also, recall how the local ROs regos will be organized - they'll have registers from subdistricts, and registers from different churches, which is quite different from the GROs organization, since it gets a whole bunch from each RD,
so if the local RO has a local index, it must contain difft info from the GRO's if they're ever going to find owt.

Some local ROs have online indices - see:
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/index.php?form_action=local
in particular:
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/

In general, it's always worth checking both the local and the GRO indices, hoping the volounteers have transcribed your bit.

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1925
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
RENDALL Frederick Vernon Fleetwood Preston HULL FLW/42/14

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1893
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HULL Jane Gertrude Kirkham Preston KH/34/56

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1893
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HULL Jane Fleetwood Preston GARVEY FLW/4/5


Now for plain Jane, we can see if she's got any sibs:

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1889
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HULL Alice Poulton-le-Fylde Blackpool GARVEY PLF/57/16
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1890
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HULL Isabella Fleetwood Preston GARVEY FLW/1/76

Now these 2 sis should appear on the 1891 census (census date is end of Mar / begin of April for 1851-1911 - before it was 6/6/1841)

There's limited free censuses - 1881 is free at:
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=census/search_census.asp
and at Ancestry.
There's partial transcriptions for Lancs 1861 + 1891 at:
http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

Fortunately the 8% of 1891 does catch plain Jane's sibs:

1891
Piece: RG12/3456 Place: Fylde -Lancashire Enumeration District: 4
Civil Parish: Thornton Ecclesiastical Parish: St Peter
Folio: 72 Page: 16 Schedule: 112
Address: 16 Rhyl Street
Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
HULL Alice Wife M F 28 Lancashire - Bury
HULL Alice Dau - F 1 Lancashire - Fleetwood
HULL Isabella Dau - F 5m Lancashire - Fleetwood


Jane from Ormskirk does seem less likely, being S of the Ribble.

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1892
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HULL Jane Tarleton Preston TAR/15/4

We can check that Tarleton is in Ormskirk RD (as outlined above). Tarleton is abt 15km out of Southport, where the road to Preston crosses the Douglas.
However, considering this Jane does provide a chance to illustrate another resource.

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/indexp.html

Baptism: 9 Oct 1892 Holy Trinity, Tarleton, Lancashire, England
Jane Hull - Daughter of John Hull & Mary Alice
Abode: Tarleton
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: Robert C Fletcher Rector
Register: Baptisms 1888 - 1900, Page 19, Entry 150
Source: LDS Film 1849640

Daniel - just to tidy up a few loose ends.

You should get Fred + Jane's m cert - it's not so much for Fred's dad who, thanks to Margaret's donation of 1911, we can assume, was Albert.
[NB Note that Fred's pob=Denton is in Ashton-u-L RD]
It's really for Jane's dad, where we've got a couple of competing choices for Jane.

It's easiest to get this cert from the GRO at:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
First time, you have to register, then you can place the order online.
If you've got the reference (you have), it'll cost 7 GBP (post incl.).
The reference info you need is one of their names, the year, quarter, registration district, vol #. & page #.

In future, you can look these refs up yourself at:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/
You can search - coverage for marrs thru 1937 is pretty good (volounteers are transcribing the original written index, which runs 1837-1983, and that's abt how far they've gotten).
If you need a date they haven't transcribed yet, you'll have to take their "view images" link, and look it up the old-fashioned way.

Here's a typical hit:

Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page
Marriages Mar 1920 (>99%)
Randall Fred Hull Fylde 8e 1471 [info box] [spectacles]

If you click on the page # link, you'll see all the names from that page.

Hull Jane Randall Fylde 8e 1471
McMillan Caroline M Sagar Fylde 8e 1471
Randall Fred Hull Fylde 8e 1471
Sagar John R McMillan Fylde 8e 1471

Here, there's no bother sorting out who married whom, but it can be problematic thru 1911 which was when they started adding the spouse's surname.
The "(>99%)" indicates how much of this quarter has been transcribed - essentially all here;
the info box is for you to add comments or corrections; and the spectacles lets you view the original yourself to check on the transcription.
The final link is the rego district "Fylde". Click on this, then the more info "here" link, and it tells you the villages, etc that were in Fylde RD,
as well as the subdistricts over time:
Blackpool; Blackpool North; Blackpool South; Fleetwood; Kirkham; Lytham; Lytham St. Annes; Poulton le Fylde
and at the foot, where the registers are now:
Registers now divided between Blackpool and Lancashire [i.e.,Preston] districts.


If you don't have the GRO ref, but have a pretty good idea of what you're after, the GRO will look it up for you, and charge you 10 GBP for the cert.
So what do you do if you've only a vague idea, or you want a cert after 1984.
Look it up on Ancestry, so say I want your b.cert - I look you up, specifying mum's MS, and get:

View Record Name Date of Registration District County View Image Order Record
View Record Daniel xxx xxxxx mm year city Lancashire

(As you'll guess from the detail provided, I don't have a sub with Ancetry.)
Now I click on the shopping basket, and read of the ref - it doesn't always put it all in - sometimes you have to hover over the basket and read info in the bottom bar of your browser).
I could order the cert thru Ancestry, but they'll charge me 20 GBP for it, so I back out.


At one point you asked "can i just ring up the local registry office and ask them for it?".
In this case, if your local RO is Blackpool, the answer for your b.cert is yes, and it'll cost 7 GBP - some local RO's do tack on extras for postage, etc.
A geographically big RD will have subdistricts where one can rego stuff. When their birth register is full, they'll send it into the local head office.
Every quarter, the local head office sends in copies of its BMDs to the GRO, formerly on London, but now in Southport.
I don't know what they do today, but in the old days, the copies sent to the GRO would be handwritten or maybe typed.
Now your b.rego in Blackpool or wherever was probably done by a parent, and they'll have signed it as an informant,
so if Blackpool RO provides original images of the rego, you'ld have (yet another) instance of your parent's signature.
Not all local ROs can or do provide original images. Birmingham does (I'm sure that brings joy to your heart).

Marrs are a bit different. Initially, only CofE, jews and quakers were trusted to keep registers, so say, an RC marr, would need the registrar to attend, so the couple could sign his register (which would also contain register office marrs).
This changed in 1898, and all sorts could keep registers, although RCs were often not authorized.
Anyway, if you got marr in a CofE church, you'ld sign the rego there, and the vicar would send a copy to the local RO, who in turn would send a copy of the copy to the GRO.
When the register got full, it was sent to the local RO, who usually archived it in the county records office (in Preston).

not sure my bank account does much celebrating - our son's birthday is actually 25th Dec AND we have a grandchild due next week plus brother-in-law today and great niece 19th (and would have been mum's tomorrow!). 2nd son did not quite make Dec (30th Nov)

Daniel
I agree with Janey, the only way to proceed is to get that marriage certificate. It is much more fun knowing that you are following the right line and easier too. You may be lucky after that as there is quite a bit of good info on lancs family on a couple of sites.

Heh, lancashire ann, lots o' celebrating and late regs in your line then. ;)


Daniel -- the Randall+Hull marriage certificate -- get it!

You gotta have those links in the chains. And since this is your first expedition into it all, do it up right and then it will be done forever.

(To do it up completely right, for the books, you need FVR's birth certificate too, but for present purposes, you can take that as read, I do think.)

Then, barring any weirdness (like his father being Mr. Deceased), you will be on sure footing when you start going back.

I googled Randalls and came up with this - unfortunately I could not get through to the page

The Regulations of the Local Sea Fisheries Committeesin ...
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
method of fishing for sea fish, for the establishment of close seasons for ... north-east from the building standing upon Salthouse Beach, known as Randall's ..... from the mark known as "Rossall Landmark," near Fleetwood, it shall be ...

Hi Janey - I had missed the bit about the exact dob on the first post, otherwise I should have realised as my gt grandfather was born 31 Dec and my own and my son's Dec births were registered in the next yr!

I must practise reading all the info!

This looks like the family in 1911, Fred is a fish packer, but Albert hasn't yet got the taste for fish.

1911 address search redefine current search
Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born Original
census
image

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RANDALL, Albert Head Married
30 years M 49 1862 Manager Saw Mill Lancashire Denton VIEW
RANDALL, Sarah Annie Wife Married F 49 1862 Lancashire Denton VIEW
RANDALL, Eva Daughter Single F 21 1890 Lancashire Denton VIEW
RANDALL, Rose Daughter Single F 19 1892 Book Binder Lancashire Denton VIEW
RANDALL, Fred Son Single M 17 1894 Fish Packer Lancashire Denton VIEW
RANDALL, Vernon Son Single M 11 1900 Lancashire Denton VIEW
RANDALL, Albert Son Single M 8 1903 Lancashire Denton VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
25462 Reference:
RG14PN25462 RG78PN1455 RD477 SD4 ED7 SN386

Registration District:
Fylde Sub District:
Fleetwood EnumerationDistrict:
7 Parish:
Fleetwood

Address:
58 West St Fleetwood County:
Lancashire

Daniel, I gave you a reference earlier for your Gran's marriage if she wants the certificate, but it seems she is pretty convinced about Fred and Jane Hull, so you can get that for confirmation of his father Albert (providing it doesn't just say "deceased") and Jane's father.

Hello,

Thank you so much to you all for your help with this.

Yes you are right I am the son of Andrew and Frederick Vernon was my grandad. He married Kathleen Webb (My Gran) we are sure of the date which was 26/10/1960, but unable to locate the cirtificates.

I spoke to my gran again last night at length and she said that Frederick Vernons parents were called Fred Randall and Jane Hull (She cant remember or confirm that Hull was her original maiden name) She told me that Jane also went crazy and was locked away in a mental hospital.

She also told me from what she remembers that Fred Randall's Dad moved from the Manchester area to set up a business. Which she believes to be fish as this is what Fred Randall did for his occupation, and subsequently so did Frederick Vernon.

From what it sounds like i will need to get Fred Randalls birth cirtificate from 1894 or alternatively the wedding cirtificate to Jane in 1920.

What do you think?

Daniel

lancashireann -- FVR's birth was reg in 1925 because he was born 30/12/1924. I expect there was a bit of celebrating went on before they got to the reg office. ;) So 1925 is the correct date of the registration, 1924 is the correct date of birth.

He died before 1971 so the exact dob isn't included in the GRO index entry.

of the 2 Jane Hull's born in Fylde in 1893

the Jane Gertrude was born in Kirkham

& the Jane in Fleetwood (mmn = Garvey)

for info this is Fred V's birth from lancsbmd (Rendall this time) but 1925 not 1924 - freebmd also 1925

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1925

RENDALL Frederick Vernon
Fleetwood
mmn = HULL

mistranscribed - 2 of the other children are there as Randall

Daniel! Maybe you'd do what I think I suggested earlier - tell us your exact connection to the various people. Are Frederick Vernon Randall and Kathleen Webb your grandparents, or great-grandparents?

If I've placed you right, you're quite a young sprout, barely out of your teens. Your father was the son of Frederick 1924 and Kathleen?

So when you say "I have also since spoken to my gran and she says that my great grandad was originally from Manchester and moved to Fleetwood", is that Kathleen Webb Randall talking about the father of Frederick Vernon Randall, or have I missed a generation?

Kathleen and Frederick married in 1960. I don't think they can be your great-grandparents!


So, if it *is* Kathleen you're talking to, we might figure she knows when her hubby was born. ;) And quite probably she knew his parents, who died a few years after she married their son.

The only "concrete" information Daniel has given is that Frederick V Randall married Kathleen Webb and was born in Fylde in 1924. Frederick V's mother's maiden name was Hull. He doesn't tell us how he knows that. It might be family hearsay. He hasn't even told us her forename. I don't know what else he knows for sure.

I might not be so fussy if this were an uncle he were looking at, but it is a direct ancestor.

So I stick with my initial advice unless he already has that info. Get the marriage cert of Fred and Kathleen, or if he feels he already has their fathers' names (not mentioned by him), then the birth of Fred.

I have been down too many wrong roads to take a chance with a direct relative.

Only then would I move backwards to the parents of Fred, who are likely Fred and Jane Hull. I agree there are no other apparent marriages of a Randall and a Hull. But I am still hesitant to make that assumption at this stage, with someone so important as a direct relative.

Then Daniel "thinks" he has found the family on an earlier census, and yes, Gee Cross, Denton and Haughton Green are all places that locals regarded as being Lancashire, as they were right on the Lancashire/Cheshire border. I come from that area. He might be right. I just think that for £7, it is worth the confirmation that Frederick Vernon Randall is the son of Frederick Randall and Jane Hull.

Once we are back onto census records then a bit of educated guesswork can be used, but I just don't feel we are close enough yet.

Okay, I am pedantic!

Margaret

Madmeg, I think what Daniel is after is going back farther, i.e. to the parents and siblings of the father (and mother?) of Frederick Vernon Randall 1924.

He has a Fred Randall 1894 and his parents and siblings -- but there's no point in tracing them unless he/we're certain that's the right Fred Randall.

It's the Randall+Hull marriage certificate that is that first essential link in the chain, to get Fred's age and father.

For certificates, I'd start here:

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

Marriage from Lancs bmd:

RANDALL * Frederick Vernon WEBB Kathleen Ellen Blackpool, Christ Church Blackpool C/5/106, 1960.

The marriage cert will tell you his father.

Do you have his birth?

Births Mar 1925 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Randall Frederick V Hull Fylde 8e 885

That will give you both parents, perhaps a better bet than the marriage cert.

I can't find the birth on Lancs bmd, so your easiest bet is to order from the GRO as you seem certain of the facts.

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp

You will need the reference number given above. It will cost you £7 and taken 5-10 days to arrive as a rule.

How would i go about finding this, can i just ring up the local registry office and ask them for it? Is there a site to get this from?

I have also since spoken to my gran and she says that my great grandad was originally from Manchester and moved to Fleetwood. I have also found Alberts birth date in Denton and then also matching a death registered to the fydle.

I think its so facinating about the family history, if this is the case, my grandads aunties owned a hat shop which another sister worked in. Whilst Albert was working in the factory.

Remember though -- you need to get the Randall-Hull marriage certificate to be certain, as it will give you Fred's age and father's name! And ditto for Jane, of course.

Heya,

I think i managed to back back a bit further back from Fred Randall, I think i managed to find his parents, which i think were Albert Randall (b1862 in Gee Cross Cheshire and died in 1919 registered to the fydle) and Sarah Randall (b1862 approx in Haughton Green, Lancashire)

I then think that they had several children:
Eliza Randall 1881
Gertrude Randall 1883
Harry Randall 1889
Eva Randall 1891
Rose Randall 1893
Charles Randall 1900
Fred Randall 1894

Unsure on deaths and marriages and children.

Cheers

Daniel