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Hi Sylvia

It's for me to apologise - I'd logged on and had a quick look through and decided to make my comment as I'd been logged off for a while. After I submitted I then started looking through in more detail - realising my error within a minurte I decided to update rather than create a new entry - seems like a mistake. Thanks for the latest details.

Best wishes

Dennis

There is this Charlotte Welch on the 1841 Census ................ the image shows that she is living with what seems to be her family (as you may know, the 1841 census does not actually state relationships, so one ahs to assume them). I have no idea why each of them has been indexed independently, but that is what has happened!

1841 Census

Name: Charlotte Welch
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Gender: Female
Where born: Hertfordshire, England

Civil parish: Wyddiall
Hundred: Edwinstree
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England

Registration district: Buntingford and Royston
Sub-registration district: Buntingford <<<<<<<< where she says she was born in later censuses

Charlotte Welch 12




The other people in the household are:-


Name: Sarah Welch
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1796
Gender: Female
Where born: Hertfordshire, England
Civil parish: Wyddiall
Hundred: Edwinstree
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England
Registration district: Buntingford and Royston
Sub-registration district: Buntingford
Household Members: Name Age
Sarah Welch 45


Name: William Welch
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1796
Gender: Male
Where born: Hertfordshire, England
Civil parish: Wyddiall
Hundred: Edwinstree
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England
Registration district: Buntingford and Royston
Sub-registration district: Buntingford
Household Members: Name Age
William Welch 45 Ag Lab



Name: Joseph Welch
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Gender: Male
Where born: Hertfordshire, England
Civil parish: Wyddiall
Hundred: Edwinstree
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England
Registration district: Buntingford and Royston
Sub-registration district: Buntingford
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph Welch 15



Name: John Welch
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Gender: Male
Where born: Hertfordshire, England
Civil parish: Wyddiall
Hundred: Edwinstree
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England
Registration district: Buntingford and Royston
Sub-registration district: Buntingford
Household Members: Name Age
John Welch 11





Now, these names do not fit the ones that you found on the christening record, so I don't know which one is correct!



This Charlotte Welch does not appear on any other census that I can see



sylvia

Unfortunately, the only record that shows on the I G I is a submitted record, and these cannot be trusted. The information has been sent in by someone, usually a member of the Mormon church, and there is no backing documentation. You should never add such informatrion to your tree unless and until you can find that backup documentation.

for the record, here is the information from the I G I.


It is NOT your couple, but I'm putting it here so that you do not get mis-led


JAMES CHAPPLE Pedigree
Male Family

Parents:
Father: JOHN CHAPPLE Family

Marriages:
Spouse: CHARLOTTE GUDGIN Family
Marriage: 17 OCT 1857 Great Berkhampstead, Hertford, England

Husband Age at Marriage: 21
Wife Age at Marriage: 24

---------
Messages:
Form submitted by a member of the LDS Church. The form lists the submitter's name and address and may include source information. The address may be outdated. Details vary. To find the form, you must know the batch and sheet number.

---------
Source Information:
Batch Number: 7309934


--------------------------------------

from freebmd

Marriages Dec 1849 (>99%)

Chappel James Royston &. 6 1059



Marriages Dec 1857 (>99%)

Chapple James Berkhampstead 3a 461




they are two different people





sylvia

You do have it right in your last posting


Ralph Bye married Charlotte Chappel/Chappell

Charlotte had been married previously to James Chappel, and had a number of children with him


The 1871 Census is probably correct ....... it is the only one with a Charlotte Chappel of the right age and birthplace.


At least 2 children (the youngest) accompanied her into the new marriage, and were still lving with Ralph and Charlotte Bye in the 1881 Census


It was probably Charlotte Welch/Welsh who married James Chappel ...... but you need to check on censuses to determine that ...... ie, does Charlotte Welsh disappear from the records at the time that Charlotte Chappel appears. Or find the parish record of that marriage ......... eg, by looking on the International Genealogical Index on www.familysearch.org




sylvia

Hi Dennsi

when I first read your posting at 19:48, you had not added the correction that you appreciated there were two Ralph Byes.

I typed up my response posted at 19:53, feeling exasperated that you ahd not seemed to ahve read anyhting that I had posted. I did not then read back.


So I did not see that you had made the correction to acknowledge that Ralph Bye married to Jane was not your Ralph.


I am sorry



sylvia

Did she marry to get name Chappel?

Marriages Dec 1849 Possible
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barker Edmund Royston &. 6 1059
Bentley Susan Royston 6 1059
Catley Charles Royston & 6 1059
Catley Lotitia Royston * 6 1059
Chappel James Royston &. 6 1059
Dellow Hannah Royston 6 1059
Gilbey William Royston & 6 1059
Smith Mary Ann Royston 6 1059
Welch Charlotte Royston 6 1059

If she was Charlotte Welsh then is this her Christening?
CHARLOTTE WELCH
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christening: 03 OCT 1830 Ansty, Warwick, (is this county wrong?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents: Father: JOSEPH WELCH Family Mother: ANN

This then could be death of husaband James Chappel
Deaths Sep 1871
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chappel James 43 Royston 3a 185

May appear on 1871 census with family group.

Remarried 1873

Two children brought into marriage listed on 1881 census
Ralph Bye 54 Ag Lab
Charlotte Bye 52 b. Buntingford, Hertfordshiire
Emma Ch. Bye 16 daughter-in-law .... ie, STEPDAUGHTER, domestic servant
George Ch. Bye 13 son-in-law ... ie, STEPSON, domestic servant

Dennis

Hi Sylvia

Thanks for your message but I thought that I'd agreed with you that there were two Ralph's - my message timed 19:48.

Thanks also for the additional info on both marriages.

Best wishes

Dennis

Marriage registrations, from freebmd.org.uk


The Hertfordshire Ralph:-

Marriages Sep 1873 (>99%)

Bye Ralph Royston 3a 375
Chappel Charlotte Royston 3a 375



The London Ralph:-

Marriages Sep 1875 (>99%)

BURTON Sarah Anne Pancras 1b 203
BYE Ralph Pancras 1b 203


This is probably the death of Jane Bye, because of the age and location, but I don't know where the middle name came from!!

Deaths Mar 1874 (>99%)

Bye Jane Washington 51 Hackney 1b 281


To complete the information:-

death registration for James Chappel, Charlotte's husband


Deaths Sep 1871 (>99%)

Chappel James 43 Royston 3a 185





but I still haven't found the Hertfordshire Ralph Bye on the 1851 Census! So who knows where he is hiding.




sylvia

1871 Census

Ralph Bye abt 1823 Holloway, Middlesex, England Brother-in-law Hackney St John, London

Name Age
John W Harper 58 Brother-in-law
Ralph Bye 48 Butcher
Jane Bye 48 Wife
Alice E Bye 20 Daughter


Ralph Bye Sarah abt 1827 Anstey, Hertfordshire, England Son Anstey, Hertfordshire

Name Age
Sarah Bye 81 Mother
Ralph Bye 44 Ag Lab



1881 Census

Ralph Bye Sarah Ann abt 1823 Holborn St Andrews Head Stoke Newington, London

Name Age
Ralph Bye 58 Butcher
Sarah Ann Bye 62 Wife, born in Wales
Letitia Fell 75 Boarder
Mary Robins 63 Servant


Ralph Bye Charlotte abt 1827 Anstey, Hertfordshire, England Head Anstey, Hertfordshire

Name Age
Ralph Bye 54 Ag Lab
Charlotte Bye 52 b. Buntingford, Hertfordshiire
Emma Ch. Bye 16 daughter-in-law .... ie, STEPDAUGHTER, domestic servant
George Ch. Bye 13 son-in-law ... ie, STEPSON, domestic servant



From this census it looks as though Jane Bye died between 1871 and 1881, and the London Ralph then married Sarah Ann BUT the Hertfordshire Ralph is alive and well with Charlotte in Anstey ... and she apparently had two children before she married Ralph.



sylvia

Dennis


how many times do I have to say it


YOUR RALPH BYE IS NOT THE RALPH BYE WHO MARRIED JANE!!!


There are two separate Ralph Byes, born at about the same time ...... one in London, and one in Anstey, Hertfordshire.


The London one is a Butcher, and married Jane

The Hertfordshire one is an Agricultural Labourer, and did not marry at all until 1873.


sylvia

I cannot not find Ralph Bye born in Hertfordshire in 1851

I ahve tried every trick that I know

using forename only
using surname only
using 1827 +/- 10 years, born Anstey, Hertfordshire AND born Hertfordshire only
using 1827 +/- 10 years living in Anstey

and, finally

searching the whole census for the village of Anstey in 1851


NADA


His parents and 3 siblings are there, but not him


I cannot spot any possible mistranscription ..... no matter how wild!!

maybe someone else will have better luck!



I wonder if he was in prison or hospital/asylum where they often use initials only ...... but that should have been brought out by the birth year + born in Hertforshire ..................... unless they didn't even put that!



I did find the London Ralph Bye, living with his in-laws, and for reference will post that here with the note that this is NOT the Ralph we are looking for, as this one can be traced right through later censuses!

1851 Census

Name: Ralf Bye
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1823
Relation: Brother-in-law
Gender: Male
Where born: Holloway, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Hackney
Ecclesiastical parish: West Hackney
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Hackney
Sub-registration district: West Hackney

John Harper 38
Phoebe Harper 58
Ralf Bye 28
Jane Bye 28
Alice Bye 10 Mo






sylvia

Many thanks to you all for such a large response. Death of first wife Jane looks like it could be a problem but should be either a London or Herts area one - correction I believe that London one now does not relate to this Ralph - thank you for pointing this out.

Thanks again to you all.

Best wishes

Dennis

Found him in 1861 ...... good mis-transcription!!!


1861 Census

Name: Sarah Bye
Age: 70
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1791
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Robert
Gender: Female
Where born: Anstey, Hertfordshire, England

Civil parish: Anstey
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England

Registration district: Royston
Sub-registration district: Buntingford

Robert Bye 72
Sarah Bye 70
Brafe Bye 34 Unmarried, Ag Lab



It DOES look Like Brafe or Rrafe on the image





sylvia

I am searching for Ralph between 1841 and 1871, but having difficulty!!


here is mother Sarah with husband, and 3 children, but not Ralph in 1851


1851 Census

Name: Sarah Bye
Age: 58
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1793
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Robert
Gender: Female
Where born: Anstey, Hertfordshire, England

Civil parish: Anstey
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England

Registration district: Royston
Sub-registration district: Buntingford

Robert Bye 59 Ag Lab
Sarah Bye 58
Abigail Bye 24 At Home
Thomas Bye 19 b.ca 1832, Ag Lab
Eliza Bye 15 At Home



sylvia

The following Public Member Trees on ancestry.co.uk apparently have information on Ralph Bye born in Hertfordshire

....... who seems to have married only ONCE ....... which was probably after his mother died!


I suggest that you may want to consider taking out a 2 week free trial in ancestry, if not a full membership, in order to look at these trees yourself, and to make contact with the owners of the trees.


You do have to be somewhat careful with trees .... it is apparent that some people just take information from other people, and do not check whether it is correct or not!


Cockman_family_tree
Public Member Tree
Unsourced

Ralph Bye
Birth: 1827 - Bishop's Stortford, Hertfordshire, England
Spouse: Charlotte (Unknown)

F: Robert Bye

M: Sarah South



sue cockman
Public Member Tree
Unsourced
Ralph Bye
Birth: 1827 - Bishop's Stortford, Hertfordshire, England
Spouse: Charlotte Chappel

F: Robert Bye

M: Sarah South


Peck-Gallavan
Public Member Tree
Unsourced
Ralph Bye
Birth: 1827 - Bishop's Stortford, Hertfordshire, England

F: Robert Bye

M: Sarah A South



sleightholme1
Public Member Tree
Unsourced
Ralph Bye
Birth: Feb 1827 - Bishops Stortford, Hertfordshire, England

F: Robert Bye

M: Sarah South



Booth
Public Member Tree
Unsourced
Ralph Bye
Birth: 1827 - Bishops Stortford, Hertfordshire, England

F: Robard Bye

M: Sarah South



Smith/ChalkleyFamily Tree
Public Member Tree
Unsourced
Ralph Bye
Birth: Feb 1827 - Bishops Stortford, Hertfordshire, England

F: Robert Bye

M: Sarah South



The Jay & Pearce Family Tree
Public Member Tree
Unsourced
Ralph Bye
Birth: Feb 1827 - Bishops Stortford, Hertfordshire, England

F: Robard Bye

M: Sarah South



baldwin-cockman family tree
Public Member Tree
Unsourced
Ralph Bye
Birth: 1827 - Anstey, Hertfordshire, England
Spouse: Charlotte Chappel

F: Robert Bye

M: Sarah South



BERYLVandepeer Family Tree
Public Member Tree
Unsourced
Ralph Bye
Birth: Feb 1827 - Bishops Stortford, Hertfordshire, England

F: Robert Bye

M: Sarah South



Surrey Hills
Public Member Tree
1 attached record, 2 sources
Ralph Bye
Birth: Feb 1827 - Anstey, Hertfordshire, England

F: Robert Bye

M: Sarah South





sylvia

There ARE two Ralph Byes:-

1871 Census

Ralph Bye abt 1823 Holloway, Middlesex, England Brother-in-law Hackney St John, London


Ralph Bye Sarah abt 1827 Anstey, Hertfordshire, England Son Anstey, Hertfordshire


This one is yours, born in Hertfordshire

1871 Census

1871 England Census

Name: Ralph Bye
Age: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1827
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Sarah
Gender: Male
Where born: Anstey, Hertfordshire, England
Civil parish: Anstey
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England
Registration district: Royston
Sub-registration district: Buntingford

Sarah Bye 81 b.ca 1790, Anstey, Widow
Ralph Bye 44 Ag Lab




This is the London one ... still married to Jane (nee Harper)

Name: Ralph Bye
Age: 48
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1823
Relation: Brother-in-law
Gender: Male
Where born: Holloway, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Hackney St John
Ecclesiastical parish: West Hackney
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Hackney
Sub-registration district: West Hackney

John W Harper 58 Unmarried, Clothier
Ralph Bye 48 Married, Butcher
Jane Bye 48 Sister, Married, Domestic Duties
Alice E Bye 20 Niece, Domestic Duties

Address:- 18 Norfolk Road



sylvia

The Ralph Bye who married Jane Harper MAY NOT BE YOUR Ralph Bye


I found this baptism record


London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906

Name: Ralph Bye
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 2 Jun 1822
Father's Name: Charles Bye
Mother's Name: Mary Bye
Parish: St Andrew Holborn
Borough: City of London
County: London



from image:-

Born 11 May 1822

Address:- Beauchamp Street

Charles' occupation:- Butcher



sylvia

You may have this, but I'm just trying to get my head into Ralph's history

1841 Census

Name: Ralph Bye
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Gender: Male
Where born: Hertfordshire, England

Civil parish: Anstey
Hundred: Edwinstree
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England

Registration district: Buntingford and Royston
Sub-registration district: Buntingford

Ralph Bye 15 Ag Lab

Address:- Cheapside



London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Ralph Bye
Name: Ralph Bye
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1822
Spouse Name: Jane Harper
Spouse Age: 25
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 8 Nov 1848
Parish: Holy Trinity
County: Middlesex
Borough: Islington
Father Name: Charles Bye
Spouse Father Name: John Harper




from actual image:-

Ralph:
age 26,
Butcher,
Address: No 2 Northampton Row

Charles Bye
Butcher

Jane:
age 25
Spinster
no occupation shown
Address:- No 2 Little St John's Wood Villas, Highbury (??0

John Harper:
Gentleman


Witnesses: Thomas Baker and Mary Lwrence



all could sign their names


EDIT:- IMPORTANT ..... this may not be the marriage of YOUR Ralph Bye .... see below





sylvia

hi
1901 census

Address Anstey Village
Civil Parish Anstey
Rural District Buntingford
Town or Village or Hamlet Anstey
Ecclesiastical Parish Anstey
Parliamentary Borough or Division Hitchin
County Borough, Municipal Borough or Urban District
Administrative County Hertford
Householder 1
Name Charlotte Bye
Relation to Head of Family Wife
Condition as to Marriage Married
Age Last Birthday 73
Sex Female
Profession or Occupation
Employment Status
Where Born Herts Bunlingford
Language
Infirmity
Householder 2
Name Ralph Bye
Relation to Head of Family Head
Condition as to Marriage Married
Age Last Birthday 74
Sex Male
Profession or Occupation Labourer On Road Lab
Employment Status
Where Born Herts Ansley.
Language
Infirmity

1891 census

Name Ralph Bye
Age 64
Estimated Year of Birth 1827
Relationship to Head of Household HEAD
Occupation AGRICULTURAL LABOURER
Address Cottage
District Royston, Buntingford
Parish
Administrative County Hertfordshire
Birth Place Anstey
Birth County HERTFORDSHIRE
in house
ralph head 64
charlotte wife 63

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Mar 1839 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bye Jane Bristol 11 111

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Jun 1840 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BYE Jane Bradfield 6 101
BYE Jane Bradfield 6 97

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Mar 1845 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BYE Jane S Stoneham 7 177

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Dec 1847 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bye Jane Hackney 3 201

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Mar 1850 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BYE Jane Tetbury 11 381

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Mar 1851 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BYE Jane Plomesgate 12 281

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Sep 1853 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bye Jane Camberwell 1d 281

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Jun 1855 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bye Jane Stow 4a 388

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Jun 1856 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bye Jane Basingstoke 2c 98

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Jun 1858 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bye Jane Epsom 2a 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Dec 1859 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bye Jane Faringdon 2c 168

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Mar 1861 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bye Jane Sarah St Thomas 5b 40

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Jun 1862 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bye Jane St. Olave 1d 32

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Sep 1862 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bye Jane Ann Eton 3a 226

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Jun 1863 (90%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bye Jane St James 1a 299
Bye Jane St James 1a 287

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Mar 1866 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bye Jane 34 Winchester 2c 71

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Dec 1868 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bye Jane 28 Cheltenham 6a 2_8

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Mar 1871 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BYE Jane 72 Henley 3a 421

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Sep 1872 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bye Jane 22 Risbridge 4a 261