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You're very welcome.

I will be interested to see what you make of it

I think getting the two certificastes for the boys may be the only way to really make sense of the relationships.



sylvia

hi Sylvia
You have been busy, I will take a good look at these later tonight when the grandkids go home, thanks a bunch
Kathy

???????????

from IGI

Elizabeth Fleming Pedigree
Female

Event(s):
Birth: 12 MAY 1828

Christening: 19 MAY 1828 St Peters,Monk-Wearmouth, , Durham, England

Death:
Burial:

--
Parents:
Father: William Fleming Family
Mother: Ann

--
Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type: C017609 Film




sylvia

from the IGI


EDWARD TOPHAM Pedigree
Male Family

Event(s):
Birth:
Christening:
Death:
Burial:

Marriages:
Spouse: MARTHA EVERATT Family
Marriage: 03 AUG 1852 Gateshead, Durham, England

Husband Age at Marriage: 29
Wife Age at Marriage: 22


-----
Messages:
Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the marriage date.



sylvia

????? Is this Elizabeth Flemming in 1841??

Name: Elizabeth Flemming
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1828
Gender: Female
Where born: Durham, England

Civil Parish: Monkwearmouth
Hundred: Chester (East Division)
County/Island: Durham
Country: England

Registration district: Sunderland
Sub registration district: Monkwearmouth
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Flemming 45
Elizabeth Flemming 13
Ann Wymark 5
Eliza Wymark 11
Elizabeth Wymark 3
Mary Wymark 7
Sarah Wymark 36
Sarah Wymark 9



sylvia

???? I wonder whether one of these was Edward's wife?

The first one could indicate she died in chidlbirth or soon after


Deaths Dec 1847 (>99%)

Topham Elizabeth Jane Sunderland 24 194


Deaths Jun 1850 (>99%)

TOPHAM Elizabeth Weardale 24 233




sylvia

well, if the first wife died when Thomas was a baby, maybe they just left him with his grandparents, and then he didn't move back to his father when dad remarried.



You should get those two birth certificates, that really is the only way you are going to solve this problem!



sylvia

Ah well, it dos'nt look like any of the Thomas's were his, at least they hav'nt lived with him, what a puzzle
thanks Sylvia
Best wishes
Kathy

???? Edward Jr in 1871

1871 Census

Name: Edward Topham
Age: 47
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1824
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Martha
Gender: Male
Where born: Clayton, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: St Andrew
County/Island: Northumberland
Country: England

Disability: View Image
Registration district: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Sub registration district: St Andrew
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Household schedule number: 179
Household Members: Name Age
Edward Topham 47 Joiner
Edward Topham 11
Everatt Topham 4
Henry Topham 9
Martha Topham 40


sylvia

well, she could have fibbed!! Not unknown


Here's the probable birth registration of the other Thomas


Births Dec 1853 (>99%)

TOPHAM Thomas Sunderland 10a 253



You maybe shoudl try to get this certificate as well




sylvia

???????????

1861 Census

Name: Edward Topham
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1824
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Martha
Gender: Male
Where born: Gateshead, Durham, England

Civil Parish: Elswick
Ecclesiastical parish: Elswick St Paul
Town: Newcastle Upon Tyne
County/Island: Northumberland
Country: England

Registration district: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Sub registration district: Westgate
ED, institution, or vessel: 22
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 248
Household Members: Name Age
Edward Topham 37 Joiner
Edward Topham 1
Martha Topham 31

Address:- 16-1/2 Myrtle Terrace




sylvia

Hi again I see what you mean, there are 2 Thomas Tophams one age 14 and one 6, now thats odd. One must be the son of Sarah. I am finding this a bit of a puzzle. Sarah Topham married my ggrandfather Robert forster, I have the parish record, she is stated as a widow, her former name was Wilson, nee Topham. They maried in 1859. I have never found the marriage of sarah to a wilson. Any ideas wellcome
Cheers
Kathy

there's also a later marriage for an Edward Topham

Marriages Sep 1852 (>99%)

CLARK Eliza Gateshead 10a 469
EVERATT Martha Gateshead 10a 469
McCarthy Joseph Gateshead 10a 469
TOPHAM Edward Gateshead 10a 469




Could it be the same Edward?.

Could it be that Elizabeth died?


sylvia

Ah! well I di'nt think of that, but I have found a marriage ;

EDWARD TOPHAM Spouse: ELIZABETH FLEMMING Marriage: 02 NOV 1846 Gateshead, Durham, England

This would fit in with the ages of the other Topham grandsond births from the 1861 census.

I wonder if anyone can do a quick check in 1861 for Edward and Elizabeth. Edward's birth is

EDWARD TOPHAM Christening: 22 JAN 1824 Bossall, Yorkshire, England
Father: EDWARD TOPHAM Mother: ANN

They would be in the same area I would think.
Thanks again for all your help
Kathy

Good point Margaret!


Makes it even more important to get that birth certificate then!


Although looking back at the 1861 census ........ Katghy has oput that there are TWO Thomas Tophams .. one aged 14 and one aged 6.


Could one be Edward's, and one Sarah's?



sylvia

from www.freebmd.org


This coould be George Thomas' birth registration

Buy this and you would get his parents, and see if it was Edward Jr who was the fatgher

Births Dec 1847 (>99%)

TOPHAM George Thomas Durham 24 75




BTW . I have tried to find Edward Jr on other censuses . nada so far



sylvia

Kathy, not necessarily his son's sons. Could be his daughter's illegitimate sons.

from the International Genealogical Index on the Mormon site, www.familysearch.org

It is an EXTRACTED record, so as trustworthy as any other record ....... in other words, needs checking!


EDWARD TOPHAM Pedigree
Male Family

Event(s):
Birth:
Christening:
Death:
Burial:

Marriages:
Spouse: ANN ELLISON Family
Marriage: 28 DEC 1818 Saint Savior, York, Yorkshire, England

--
Messages:
Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the marriage date.

--
Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:

M071861 1813 - 1837 0990880 Film 6910169 Film

1841 census
High St., Gateshead, Durham
Edward Topham, 45, labourer
Edward, 15, cabinet maker
Ann, 45
Sarah, 20
Ann, 12
All NOT born in county.

hi thanks all for the info, it looks like Edward the father had only one son he was also a Edward, so the 2 grangchildren he had withhim in 1861 must be his son's son's. I wonder where their father and mother were, I dont have ancestry so its a bit hard to find any census, I will go now and see if I can find a marriage onthe igi ot free bmd, then get back if I find them.
Thanks a bunchj
Kathy