General Chat

debby, we were not thinking it was directed at us, but as we do live on benefits at the minute, we do like to have our opinion on these matters. we are also one of those couples planning another child but we are doing so because we think we can afford it and prioratise (sp) our money. also with having so many things in the house after having one, then there isnt too much of an expense for the second one. my partner and i both worked full time since leaving school and i have every intention of going back to work when i feel ready to leave my daughter. my partner is unable to work at the moment due to problems with his knees and will be off work until they decide whether or not he requires surgery. once we have got him sorted out he will be going back to work full time to support me and our daughter (and future children). annie and gary

My last comments on this thread. thanks for your interest. I don,t think anyone is claiming that ID cards are the be all and all. just one more tool in the armoury. The saddest part in all this is that when I was a teenager and the world at war people used to say 'if everyone was British, none of this would happen'. We now have muggings; terrible standards; pensioners afraid to walk the streets - and now this, Brits blowing up Brits. Perhaps older people have always railed thus. happy days - maybe.

It's an awful thing to have to say but we might as well get used to it - nothing will ever change. Terrorism will never end - as David so beautifully stated 'the next idiots come along'. There will always be someone to take their place. Sad but true. Debby

Can someone tell me how an ID card will keep me safe? I just don't agree. I have nothing to hide. I have a passport, a national insurance number, an NHS number, I'm on the electoral roll, I pay tax, I have a credit rating, I have a driving license, what's the difference? I can be identified in many different ways as can any other person. This is just another stealth tax, following the ideas of the European parliaments, to make further excuses for the inefficiencies of our present government and no doubt many recent ones. The key problem is lack of respect , from the cradle to the grave, and an ineffectual system of law. I don't imagine for a moment that any of this will be sorted out in my lifetime and I am by no means old.

Since at least one of the bombers left his credit card and driving licence in the wreckage, I don't see how his leaving his ID card there as well would be any help at all. Until these bombers were named, no one had any suspicions about them - people who knew them had no idea. If they had ID cards with their names on this would not have changed what happened. It is only if the names are already known that they would be of use - but if they were already under suspicion, they would not have been able to come to London and cause the outrage. nell

Thanks to all yougood folks for your interest. David, Points well made. My thanks to Jacqui for her kind remarks. happy days

Hi It's very interesting to read through all the comments, regarding todays generation, suicide bombers, degenerate parents, lack of moral standing, coloureds or muslims, young tearaways, ID cards, violence. In 1948-50 there were suicide bombers opperating in Palestine-israel, in the 50s - 60s we had mods and rockers knocking seven bells out of each other at seaside resorts and scaring people, we also had the dreaded Hells Angels, we had the Angels from USA riding the underground because of the violence. my father was a special constable, he told me in certain places they had to patrol in pairs or they would be attacked, then we have had the IRA for years and years killing and maiming innocent men women and children, and are still at it, yesterday 80 policemen injured from missiles and blast bombs, also there have always been conflicts around the world, Suez, Cyprus, Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Malaya, Iraq, Iran ect ect, Sadly todays is another part in history that needs to be delt with and we do and have always lived in a blame culture, We all need to be on guard and ever watchful, then get ready for the next lot of idiots to come along David

Annie & Gary I don't think it was aimed at yourselves - more to those 'Vicky Pollards' we have around us these days. As for a mother staying at home with her children - well, in an ideal world yes, but unfortunately with the material world we live in, mothers can't afford to. I was a single parent and I worked from my son being 6 months old and have worked full time since. I wouldn't have wanted to or expected to live off the state like so many do these days. What annoys me even more is the ones who then go on to have even more children when they can't afford the one they already have. Debby

just to add our point of view on some of the topics on this thread. we may be classed as 'spongers' by some because we receive help with our rent and council tax, but it isnt actually worth having it. my partner is off work at the minute so receiving SSP and i am at home looking after my 14 month old daughter. unless i am mistaken mothers are supposed to stay at home with their children while they are young. is that not why maternity leave is going to be extended? as for I.D cards - people can forge them, they already do, teenagers to get into clubs and pubs for instance. not implying that all teenagers do but a lot do at some point so they can go out with older friends and things. all different races of people are born in the UK which means they will get some I.D here in one form or another ie. passport, drivers licence. so to think that I.D cards would have prevented the london bombings is naive in our opinion. we do not mean to offend anyone with our comments but think we are entitled to our opinion also. annie and gary

Many moons ago (20yrs) I was employed in the computer business. At that time I had a very good friend who was Gay and he landed a super job working on a new system being put together for an arm of the police system. I meet him for dinner one night to ask how this new job was going and he told me that regrettfully he had thrown the towel in - because when he joined the project he was not happy at the information being collected on every person in the UK, and this was to include religious beliefs, sexual preferences!, known associations with partisan groups, animal welfare, human charity groups. He thought it was scary and did not want to be part of it.

I have heard something today (by a person who in all probability doesnt know B from Bullsfoot about anything, so it's down to whether the individual believes it or not) that the alleged 'terrorists' and perpertrators of last weeks abomination were already on a 'list' and were in fact known to the anti-terrorist squad - they just hadnt put a foot or finger out of place before to enable them to be knabbed. This person also maintains that there is a file on just about everyone in the UK, and I for one actually feel more secure if that is the case as I feel I have nothing to hide from society. Just my humble opinion Jacqui

What an interesting and informative thread! well done Harry for introducing it, and well done everyone for their considered, forthright and personal opinions. It is refreshing to see a thread where the participants can debate like adults without resorting to arguing aimlessly. I have enjoyed reading everyone's opinion; my own humble opinion is like the majority of yours, ID cards would not have prevented last Thursday's tragedy but hey, any means to prevent another tragedy must be worth a go? Those with nothing to hide have nothing to fear from ID cards, although deep in the recesses of my mind I recall talk years ago of everyone (and I mean everyone) being on a list somewhere already, that contains more information than many of us would even recall about ourselves. So maybe ID cards perhaps wouldnt be that much of an assistance to national security, but I do believe we should help ourselves by showing our willingness to possess ID and not knock it - the costs involved are small compared to the loss in human life. Jacqui

Stiring a pot can be good, stops it boiling over or becoming congelled. A a bit of variety in the pot too makes for a discussion. All valid points in their way I must say and there is always the exception, or lots of them... It can be very difficult to put a point across in such a short text without leaving something out that may affend.... And as I say Just my view I think everyone is entitled to theirs it gives sides to a discussion. I hope it doesn't come across that I would ever put down anyone for theirs it's just a different point of view. I understand what Rose is saying from her experience. I think Robert made some good points too and mainly agree. Criminals all ways find the loop hole and it just seem's that the ID card is more of a net than a closed bag. Only holds those that have no reason to get away all the others wriggle through. sue

Ramblin' Rose - you made some good points in your first post ... I understand the 'concept' of what you mean and am sorry it seems to have struck a bit of a chord with some members, I am sure it wasn't meant that way. Your comments are on society as a whole and the constant 'tinkerings' of politicians to bring things to a level of 'political correctness'. Responsibility: this is a great word and an attribute all too infrequently found. Rob, you too have made some good, hard-hitting points. On the subject of ID cards, I totally agree, they would have made no difference last Thursday ... unless of course they were chipped and satellite tracking was active ... but even then, how could anyone have known. (Personally, I dead set against them anyway ... I'm all for 'freedom of information', but look how easily the media already seem to get access to info.) Anyway, my own contribution to this thread goes along the lines of bringing back some kind of a community spirit and perhaps stopping any more young men being duped into taking such terrible action, for their own good and for that of others. I'm no do-gooder, but I'd like to think we could somehow live fulfilling lives without hurting anyone - physically or mentally. Jane

Get real, people - no amount of additional security, whether in the form of ID cards, chips, genetic databases, or the endless passing of laws restricting our every movement will ever prevent a terrorist attack. The success of such an attack is that the attacker is unknown to the authorities, with no previous history of radical views, no known contact with extremists, and no known knowledge of explosives or bomb-making: in other words, the four prime suspects. The only way that a similar event may be prevented is by each and every one of us being confined to our homes, and having to apply for, then wait for, permission to leave. Each application will have to state the proposed destination, and the reason for travel, as well as declaring (and perhaps subsequently proving) the contents of any bags carried en route, and each will have to be monitored for the entire journey. We should all have to succumb to periodic unannounced inspection of our homes, with the search team allowed full access to everything, as well as full investigation of every aspects of our lives. Very Orwellian, and it has happened to a degree in other countries (all of them castigated by ourselves - e.g. the USSR), but do you really want that? Put these attacks into perspective - it is only that they are so dramatic that we create such a fuss. It would be interesting to find out how many people died in road traffic accidents on that day. To allow ourselves to be whipped into such a state of hysteria is only playing into the hands of these terrorists. Rob

I. have to agree with Rambling rose,s considered reply. Of course the lack of a wedding ring doesn,t stigmatise everone, but the general point is a fair one. Liberalism abounds in this country. I associate it with my 'do gooders' point. No-one can object to any do-gooding point in isolation, but when you multiple it by 50 or more, as has been happening over the years, not everyone is going to be happy. Someone or somethings have landed us in the state we now find ourselves. happy days

Ramblin' Rose - you are so right! I know there are single mums who didn't choose to be so or circs dictated their situation, they have my sympathy, but there are also a lot of them who chose that path - some of them so that they could get a council flat/home! Then they live on housing benefits etc while the rest of us struggle to work and raise/support our children. What kind of example are these young women setting for their kids and future generations? Lily

Elizabeth,your own situatuon was dreadful and obviously not the type of situation to be included in my comments.I too had an awful first marriage and went for a time without my wedding ring whilst raising my sons. I did not sponge off the state.I had produced those children and they were my responsibility.I washed up in a hotel every night to bring in extra money whilst my friend babysat our children.I was brought up by my grandmother and have her values and standards. And Count the wedding rings was an amusing passtime,but a social comment also. Why don't you think about it and look to the wider implication for our society I think the pendulum has swung too far in the direction of liberalism.There will eventually be a taxpayers rebellion. Why should we continue to pay for those who are not prepared to contribute.Read history ,find out about the Speenhamland System. This is not at all what I meant by my comments as you know. i AM SORRY,BUT THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARE QUITE HAPPY TO LIVE OFF THE STATE AND WHO HAVE NO INTENTION OF MAKING ANY CONTRIBUTION WHAT SO EVER TO IT. i WAS A WELFARE OFFICER for many years and know about both sides of this issue. I will not back down ,we do have a culture now where baby comes first and the relationships are casual. I see it every day.

I can agree with Elizabeth on Wedding ring or not. I have freinds that are exelent mothers and living with the also exelent fathers. At the moment they don't want marriage having been through that before. There are plenty of 'bad' mothers out there that are married so you just can't tell and I wouldn't generalise. An aquantance who has been married 20 odd years never wears a ring on her finger but has one round her neck. As for Id cards at the moment I can't see how they would have stoped anything...they need to sort out better ways of checking than just introducing a card which is as easily lost or stolen as a wallet or credit card... I wouldn't volunteer to use one but being a good citizen I would have to if compulsory...how are they going to make the criminals use one? Just my view and I can see others. sue

After the 9/11, when they said in England they were going to tighten up security etc well why didnt they? why is it now after a couple of bombs went off and innocent people injured and killed must it be tightened up. This Country always waits until something happens before they actually do something and in a couple of months all of this will have died down and a lack of security will be begin again. Yvonne