General Chat

Well said Felicity - where are the male role models? Posers like footballers who earn too much money and can't behave properly, show no respect towards women, are no good for our young lads to follow. Fathers who aren't around, or if they are, are on the dole and drink to excess, I could go on but what's the point. Until the males of the species take responsibility, we will always have these yobs around our streets. Maybe some of them should be castrated so they can't continue to reproduce more and more aimless yobbos, who go on to reproduce even more mindless yobbos, where will it end?

I'm sorry Rupert, but I think you're making my points for me. You say that your grandson needed a firm (male) hand, but you say nothing about the father who was not the firm hand he needed. You also mention 'handouts to young mothers with 3 or 4 children' as if somehow financial support is part of the equation. 3 or 4 children by different fathers and a mother with no means of support but a 'handout' means that there are 3 or 4 men or boys who are not meeting their parental responsibilities. The ratio is a little unbalanced, don't you think? Not to mention the many, many boys and men who get into some sort of trouble but who had 2 parents at home. There are far more boys and men guilty of violent behaviour and filling up our prisons than women, though women and girls are unfortunately catching up. I'd be more inclined to ask - what kind of role models do young men have these days? They look to older men to teach them how to behave, family members or otherwise. To my mind, the men in our society are not doing a very good job of raising boys. It's about time that men started taking responsibility for the society they have created. THEY are the ones who in the main abandon families and THEY are the ones who in the main control the legislation and make the laws that others then say are too soft. Then THEY blame women saying that they are too soft with boys and don't bring them up to behave properly. Catch 22 for women methinks - again.

Purple and Felicity,the use of the term one parent families is unfortunate to say the least . Whilst there are a good many mothers (in the main) who bring their children up on their own without or very litle financial help from the fathers there are those who have 3 to 4 children by different fathers who do not do this. I myself have a daughter whose marriage broke down and who with help from ourselves raised two boys , the eldest now going 22. I admit that one boy needed a strong hand to keep him on the rails. This was from his school days. With strict discipline from myself and taking him in to our home, he was shown the better way to live. I therefore know that not all single parent families are to blame for ourproblems. However with handouts to very young single girls(most of school age) is it any wonder that we have delinquents on the street, and before anyone shoots me down I know that this does not apply to all Rupert

I don't think you're 'going on' Liz. Like you, I get a bit fed up with the constant references to 'single parents' and how the break up of the family is the root of all evil. The inference is that single parents (for 'parent' read 'mother' ) are incapable of bringing up children properly. When will it be acknowledged that for every single parent there is an absent parent and it could be the absence of that parent that causes difficulties in the family if there are any? The other point, that you make eloquently, Liz, is that many if not most single parent families produce well-balanced, loved and law-abiding citizens. I'd rather not apportion blame, as everyone's circumstances are different, but if blame is going to be bandied about I'd like to see a bit more going in the direction of feckless men who abandon their families, often to the mercy of poverty and ridicule. I'll get off my soap box now. Sorry.

First of all Bob and Rupert especially, I must disagree with your attitude towards single parents. I am a single parent and my son is now 23. At no time has he ever attacked people - in fact he is known for his mediating when things get ugly, altho of course he can look after himself if he needs to, why not? His nickname is Solid and his friends all know he is to be relied upon if they are in a jam. He was hard work for me indoors in his early teens as his father opted out early on in his life, and was abroad so had little input. I stuck to my rules about his behaviour and we got through it, and I am very proud of him. He is very good with his girlfriend's little boy and is firm but fair and patient with him showing him right from wrong. Other lads in his class at school who I had known from the age of 3 or 4 who had both parents at home, were a nightmare in our area, and were often in trouble with the police. I have other single parent friends with children who are fine, decent kind lads and girls, so don't label people in the way you did. Norwich has had a lot of muggings etc recently - a while ago a lad was attacked by a group of youngsters, who stole his glasses, shoes, phone, watch and wallet. Altho not hurt, this lad was quite badly shocked - it was after dark and he must have been very scared. An old gent who had been living his life out quietly was attacked by men at his door, who pushed him over breaking his hip, etc and stole his money. He died later in hospital. What do they deserve if they are ever caught? If they knew they would get a public flogging maybe that would have made them think twice. I don't think that is being vindictive. I was recently in a Lidl store and a chap who looked drunk went by me with his rather grubby small sons, and he made a comment to them about me, saying look out for Miss Marple or something similar. These are the parents who don't teach their kids respect and then the kids have kids and so the sorry story goes on. Believe me I am not a violent person - I cannot bear to watch anything where there is un necessary violence but heaven forbid, if anyone hurt my son or someone I was close to and I could get near them I would hit them with whatever I could find so they knew how it felt. So those women who were attacked were not injured etc. Surely the humilation that was forced on them and the fact of being prodded and frightened deserve sympathy and punishment for the attackers. 10 years and 600 lashes was harsh but if it makes others think twice then fine, if it had been the attacker's sister or mother, wife or daughter, the boot would have been on the other foot then. Sorry to go on, but this state of affairs in our country has got to be stopped somehow and the softly softly approach doesn't make a scrap of difference.

hi len,i totally agree with you,one thing our country seem to be good at is letting people get away with stuff,and a taste of there own treatment would,nt go a miss,xxxxxxxxxxjoy

Bob, We have had more murders in this country since the death penalty was abolished and cetainly more murders of elderly people and those too frail; to help themselves. If as you say the trouble stems from broken homes ( and to a degree I agree with that) what will the country be like in 50 years time assuming as I do that single parents will be the majority. In an ideal world there would be no call for what is called'severe punishment'but we have not an ideal world and neither have we any where near an ideal country. MP's were given a free vote on hanging but when I asked my MP why he did not consult his constituents his pathetic reply was 'you elected me to repesent you. Well this pathetic man did not representv my or thousands of others views but his own As stated before until magistrates and politicians get a dose of what we the ordinary people suffer there will always be an outcry for hanging and corporal punishment to be brought back Rupert

Bob, I still feel that it is possible to dish out physical punishment, not for revenge, not for sadistic reasons, but to inflict hurt on someone who thinks nothing of inflicting hurt on others. Were I laying in Hospital with my jaw wired up and a couple of broken ribs just because some drunken teenager had been turned away from a Night Club and felt angry, I would be happy for the offender to 'Fall down the Stairs' at the Police Station. I wouldn't call that revenge, would you?

“Flogging”; “a few lashes”; “THREE CHEERS FOR SAUDI ARABIA” ; someone who thinks it’s OK for teachers to punch children. I don’t think vindictive is too strong. What these people want is revenge. I offer no short term answers and I believe that the magistrates do the best they can. What you have to understand is that there are people out there who REALLY don’t give a monkey’s what they do or what punishment they get. A few “stripes” would be a badge of honour. Nothing new there - I went to a boarding school in the 50s where we were caned. Our stripes were something to show off about in the shower. Bob

Bob, I feel that 'vindictive' is a bit harsh. Surely we are only discussing alternative punishments and the lack of effective ones to stop these people who have no respect for the lives and welfare of their fellow human beings. The Law is there to protect the vulnerable. It isn't really doing that, is it?

It makes me so sad to read the nasty vindictive views of the hangem and floggem brigade. I respect your right to have these opinions but I certainly wouldn’t wish to live in a country run by such barbarians. There is no evidence whatsoever that severe retribution prevents crime. It didn’t stop the Saudi youths did it? The death penalty in some of the United States hasn’t had any effect on the murder rate. The soldiers in Iraq who videoed themselves beating up some teenage kids will suffer much more severe punishment that would their civilian counterparts, but it didn’t stop them either. There are many reasons why people behave like this but I believe that the break-up of families has made a major contribution. I mean no disrespect to all you single mothers out there but it must be better for a child to grow up in a family unit with two adults of opposite sexes. Bob

When someone threw an egg at John Prescott he retaliated by throwing a couple of punches. This is the Deputy Prime Minister of a Government who have difficulty in accepting that you or I wish to be able to defend ourselves and our property by any means possible. It is about time they stopped pussyfooting around these young THUGS and dealt with them properly.

Unfortunately Good Manners/Behaviour and Respect begins at home ,and the responsibility rests with the 'Parents' to instill this in their Children,If its not there, and they will not, or cannot do this, no matter how much you threaten ,cajole, or punish these people,( and its not only youngsters who behave badly )they will never change untill they respect themselves,and only then ( hopefully )They will learn to respect others and their feelings.( Mind,a good kick up the backside helps occasionally. ) Hal.

Rupert, My son (now aged 27) takes the view that brutes are only made more brutish by beatings. I agree with you fully about loss of respect for others, and I find it very sad that too-soft attitudes towards wrongdoers over several decades have resulted in boundaries being pushed further and further away from norms of good social behaviour. The remedy lies in the hands of the Law Lords, who are mostly coccooned from the experiences of the majority of people in this country, and thus unwilling to give suitable punishments that will act as deterrents. I'd favour 'boot camps' for habitual offenders over beatings. I believe what I was always taught when young - the best form of discipline is self-discipline. However, with most of today's young offenders, they've never been shown or taught any consistent discipline or the reasons for it, and that's why they behave as they do. That's not condoning their behaviour, just explaining it. CB >|<

CB , I respect what you say and am sorry to hear of this, however are you positive that in future years your son and his friend will take a different view, after all they were sinned against too. As has already been said this sad nation of ours has gone too far in the wrong direction and only time will tell if a nation plagued with disrespect and mindless savegery can be beat the situation with the sort of punishment advocated today . It wont in my lifetime and in my estimation will only get worse , much worse. Rupert

Rupert, You are, of course, entitled to think as you wish. My mother hit me throughout my childhood, alongside a great deal of verbal abuse, not for bad behaviour but because she had a vile temper. I hated her for it then, and I still do. There are those who say that corporal punishment never did them any harm, but it certainly harmed me. It didn't engender respect. That is why I don't believe in it. 'Might' doesn't equal 'Right' in my book, and having seen what a gang of thugs did to my son and his friend on two occasions virtually on my own doorstep, I still wouldn't advocate those boys being whipped. CB >|<

The punishment doesn,t fit the crime these days. However threads such as these are an outlet but a waste of time. The horse has bolted and it,s not coming back Do gooders is a funny word but I think you know what I mean - they are now fully entrenched. From a crime and punishment angle, I thought a Tory government would be a good thing, but DC seems as wishy washy as the others. Sleep soundly. Happy days

When adults molest and murder babies and the infirm and elderly are mugged for sometimes a few pence, I wonder how and why we are raising our children. They know that punishment for their behaviour is minimal and laugh and ridicule their elders and the police who seem to have their hands tied. My brother, just before he died was happy slapped in a small village, when he returner the action the 13 year old threatened him with his father and the police, My brothers reply was,' Bring them all here I would love to talk to them', the boy went off crying but no one appeared. My brother was recovering from a heart attack and was only 50 yards from his home. I do not believe in thrashing but I do think we have as a society gone far to far the other way

Just like to add, that the Saudi woman wasn't killed or even severely assaulted. If she had been, maybe the punishment would have fitted. But she hadn't been killed or severely assaulted...had she ? Elaine x

In my opinion we are far tooooo soft and our prisons are overcrowded. I think if somebody has come to our country to live either as an immigrant or asylum seeker if they break the law then they should be immediately deported no matter what and not put in our prisons at our expense. I am not a racists but they should respect the laws of the land that they want to live in Gloria