General Chat

A report from the CBI employers' group found one in three businesses were forced to pay for staff to have remedial lessons in basic literacy and numeracy. Bosses condemned standards of spelling, handwriting and mental arithmetic - once the bedrock of lessons in 'the three Rs'' at school. And many firms raised concerns over the practical and social skills, as well as the 'general attitude'' of school leavers, with one warning: 'We'll soon have a nation of people unable to put up shelves.''

But Len, just think of the benefits.... we'll soon have a nation that can take on the world at 'super mario' and text speak. Oh please, no. I'm with you. Green

I'm afraid I have to blame the education system. My children (23 & 26) were never taught their times tables, neither were they taught 'mental arithmetic'. When I worked in a secondary school beween 1999 and 2001, I could beat the children who were using calculators to work out fairly simple sums. I also did a BA degree that involved education. During a 'philosophy of education' lecture, the tutor asked a simple question: 'What is more important, a love of learning or an ability to teach the National Curriculum?' To a man (and woman), every BA student said a love of learning. Every B(Ed) (potential teachers) said an ability to teach the National Curriculum. This implies these potential teachers just wanted to know what information to impart, and had little conception of how important a love of learning is to the pupil. I was worried at the time, and my later time at school confirmed my concern. When I was at school, the best 'learning times' were when we got the teacher 'off subject', and learnt all sorts of things!!! maggie

Who's to blame? We all are - we get the society we deserve and much as the 'experts' are 'to blame' for the failed educational experiments in which the nations children were guinea pigs, so were the parents and others who could and should have spoken up loudly when children were not learning what they needed to know. We now have a society that daren't do anything until an 'expert', who often knows less than they do in practical terms, has been consulted and people are too often too insecure to trust their own judgement and instincts. An excellent topic, Len, and I look forward to seeing what others have to say.

well said Felicity!! xx

So 2 out of 3 firms got their recruitment strategy right then!

I just called in before heading off to bed - good idea for a thread, Len. In the 70s when I started teaching infants children came to school able to hold a pencil, dress themselves, sit and listen to a story, play co-operatively, converse coherently and knew how to use a knife and fork. At the school I taught at the children were taught tables, a lot of schools do still teach them. When I went into supply teaching when my son reached school age I found a lot had changed. The reception teachers were having to teach the same very basic skills to children that parents had previously taught. This delayed start was bound to have a knock on effect. It seems to be getting worse year on year. My job as a teacher was to teach kids to read, write and add up, anything else was a bonus. Now schools are expected to teach things that used to be the responsibility of the parents. The so-called experts have not helped in the least but most schools I've worked in *do* concentrate on the core subjects and *do* teach tables and mental arithmatic. Sadly, there seem to be more and more disruptive children in schools and little that head teachers can do about them. Some parents defend bad behaviour. When I was a kid if I was in trouble at school my parents backed the teachers. Now teachers are threatened with violence if they try to punish bad behaviour. I'm heartily sick of 'industry' moaning about school leavers not having skills. If they want young people with specific skills then they should reintroduce apprenticeships, not expect the schools to produce young people tailored to their needs. I agree with Felicity. As a society we get what we deserve. Semi-drunken rant over. Gwynne

The older I get, the more I realise what a wonderful education I had, all courtesy of the state. My infant and junior school was a Victorian building, with outside toilets. The teachers were mostly past retirement age, the younger ones having been killed off in the War. We learned mostly by rote - but oh boy, I can recite my times tables in a coma. There were 53 children in my class, in a poor working class area of Manchester. All but one child left that school able to read and write and 'do sums'. That one child was probably what we would call ESN now, but in those days she just sat in the classroom and let it all go over her head. We had two lessons a week devoted to General Knowledge. This again was mostly by rote, but we knew the capital cities, the rivers, the mountains etc, the Kings and Queens of England and so on - stuff which doesnt seem to be taught in schools anymore, but which is so useful. Best of all was Friday afternoon. The teacher would read to us and I particularly remember The Wizard of Oz. She imparted a love of reading which has never left me. I passed my 11 plus and went to a brand new Grammar School which had only been open for a year. The Headmaster took us for most subjects and he was a truly inspirational teacher. We frequently got him 'off-topic' and listened entranced as he told us things about history, the world, political attitudes and so on. I still remember him saying 'Question everything you are told, prove it for yourself before you accept it as a fact'. This has stood me in good stead all my life, even if it has made me a bit cynical! I sat old-fashioned GCEs and A levels - they were HARD. A portion of the marks for these exams was allocated to correct spelling, punctuation and grammar. I despair of the modern education system but I cannot see what I can do about it, other than to use my vote. OC

Felicity, I agree with you, as well as what I said in my earlier posting. 'I think many 'experts' just have the ability to convince a department to pay for this 'research', when, in reality, it has all been done before. OC Oh yes, I remember those days well :o) Especially 'off topic' time. maggie

I agree that there has been a big change in Society in the last 50 years. where Education was once revered by nearly all and seen as 'the way to get on in life' and improve your living standards, today's society does not have that impetus. We have a sub-class of people who see no point in education, the State will keep them in comfort, and what the state does not provide, they can steal with little chance of any real punishment. We have single mothers, or dysfunctional families, who cannot be bothered to teach their children basic life skills such as dressing themselves, table manners etc. (This is not a pop at single mothers, its a pop at single mothers who make a career out of being a single mother, drawing their wages from the state). I think Employers have a right to be indignant about lack of basic skills - they too pay taxes which go towards providing an education system. The old Technical Schools have gone - that middle ground between Secondary Moderns and Grammar Schools, which enabled the technically-minded, but not necessarily intellectual, to realise their full potential. My ex husband was a Technical School boy and he went on to University, becoming a Chartered Engineer. Far too much emphasis is put on paper qualifications, which now seem to be mostly worthless in my opinion. We will always need dustmen, waitresses, labourers and cleaners, who do not need a paper qualification to do their job. As with all the present social ills, it requires a radical rethink of our government policies - I cannot see any government daring to tackle it. OC

While I agree there has been a great change in education, it has been over the past 40 years. The Grammar/technical/secondary schools were a great idea - but not enough Technical schools were built. this was a fantastic system, but not enough money was put into it, then 'experts' came up with the Comprehensive. It is the Comprehensive system that has created the 'sub-class' of children. Comprehensives have become more and more academic. They can't cope with both the academic and the non-academic, so the non-academic are essentially 'thrown by the wayside', thereby creating the sub-class. As for children of single parents being the cause of all ills, which is still being bandied about by the government, I did a survey with my younger child in the 1990's, when she got upset over a report on the radio about the children of single parents being the children using most money on extra help. Our survey of her school (where I was a LSA) showed that, of the 10 children receiving extra help 9 had two parents!! The problem is, government still assesses special needs funding on free school meals - and assumes these children (usually those of single parents) are the ones receiving the help!! Oh BTW, younger child now has a degree in geology and I, as a single mother ( I wasn't prepared to stay married to the local Lothario) got a degree in education & religion 7 years ago. maggie

PS to rant. My father (head of English) used to say that it is impossible to write good English unless you read good English. Children don't seem to read any more. My son got a library card when he was 2 and the weekly trip to the library was a real treat for him. I see very few children in our local library now. They prefer TV, DVDs and computer games. Perhaps if parents instilled a love of reading in their children instead of sticking them in front of a screen then the standard of literacy would improve. Even after I could read my Dad used to read to me every night until I went to Grammar School as my OH did with our son. I'm saddened when I visit friends' homes and there are no books in sight - shelves are used for DVDs and videos. I went to a Grammar school, which was dreadful, I learned despite the teachers not because of them. My son went to the local comp, which was excellent. He had a much more rounded education than I had. His general knowledge at 18 was far better than mine was at the same age. The opportunities are still there in schools for the young people who choose to take advantage of them. You can lead a boy to college but you can't make him think. Gwynne

i'm 23. although we were allowed to use calculaters at she our teacher encouraged us not to which was agood thing i managed most of my maths exam without a calculater and got a C grade in my GCSE. English was more about content than spelling and grammar. when my son started nursery last jan (he 4 1/2 now) he could hold a pencil/pen and trace over letters and do simple dot to dots he could also count to 20, knew some colours and could recoinise some simple words without pictures before he started nursery. I can't say it all down to me as he went to pre-school(playgroup) but i'm always trying to teach him new things as well i'd rather know when he grows up that he learn't somethings from me. we also have libary cards and he has loads of books which i buy he gets books for xmas and birthdays and he loves them and so does my daughter! bad behaviour how are we supposed to handle it?? I read a article recently you are advised not to physically disapline them(which i agree with), not to raise your voice or shout (mental abuse) not to confiscate things (encourages them to take from others) not to send them to there rooms(false imprisionment?) so how are we supposed to punish them for bad behaviour??? at the mo my kids are young and 'timeout' works well but can you imagine making a teenager sit in the naughty chair for 2 minutes!

Interesting dicussion. I do not really know who to blame, but I clearly remember my mum saying I had had the last of the best education (I am 32). Even so, I remember my maths teacher telling us to buy a scientific calculator and saying that this was the future and maths was about learning to use the technology. I got an A in maths but I still can't do long division on paper! I also agree with a lot of what Gwynne was saying about reading. I love reading and had the classics shoved at me as soon as I could read 'Janet and John'. I read to my children every night and have done since they were born. I think this has helped a lot with my general knowledge, literacy skills ect. Also, my mum (TA) bemoans the fact that so many four year olds can't hold a pen, dress themselves, write their name, or even use the toilet without help. Why can't children do these things? Is it that parents are lazy? or is it because many parents don't know how to discipline and encourage their children since they are not allowed to punish? Do parents need lessons in parenting to give our children the basic skills and good grounding they need to begin to learn? I firmly believe that learning, and a love of learning starts at a young age and if it strts off wrong, it is going to be hard to reverse. Claire xx ( off me soap box now)

I am by nature, but not by qualification, a Teacher, and I really enjoy imparting knowledge to young people who are interested. What I am unable to understand is why our young people are allowed to leave school without having received sufficient knowledge to be able to go straight to work. Surely School is the place to be educated. Basic skills should not be left to Employers to teach. Although obviously there will be particular additional stuff which is peculiar to each Company. When children left school and entered Employment at the age of 12, 13 or 14, they learned life-skills and earned a Wage. Now they are kept at school, frustrated and angry, until 16 to 18, and then sent out without any skills at all. In our early days of raising a family we refused to have a TV, and only relented after several years. I wonder if it is significant that my eldest 2 both got Degrees, while the youngest 3 did not go on to further education.

I too am an Infant teacher, and I have to agree wholeheatedly with Gwynne, who is echoing the thoughts of all of my colleagues. Yes, the Education system is constantly changing, and yes, teachers are concerned by this. However, when 5 year olds come into school, unable to dress themselves, eat with a knife and fork, hold any sort of conversation, use a toilet, or interact with other children without aggression, as professionals, we have to address these issues as a priority. Unfortunately the issues I have described are now the norm, not isolated incidents, and as a teacher, I am finding that the children in my care are more in need of parenting than the three R's at that stage of their life. Sad but true. S x

What and interesting and complicated issue this is!! :-) While schools and the education system have much to answer for, the points regarding parenting are very interesting too. I agree that many children start school these days unable to do what many could do years ago and the reasons for that are many and varied. Someone asked if it's because parents are lazy, but if children can't dress themselves, it must be because adults are doing it for them. It seems to me that again there are many reasons why this might come about, two examples being that life is such a rush that parents are always doing things for their children rather than taking the time for them to learn - anyone remember how long it takes a 2-year-old to put on a pair of socks? :-), or that people simply don't realize that children need to be taught these things. Something else that occurred to me in a conversation with a young parent the other day - in her 30's with an 8-year-old. She was saying that she remembered hating being sent to bed as a child so her daughter didn't have a bed time and was allowed to go to bed when she was tired. That seems to me to be counterproductive and an example of how some parents see things too often from the perspective of what they would have liked as a child and not what is good for children - not the same thing at all!! It's true that children are like sponges and will soak up learning given half a chance, but they need some guidance or they won't learn what they need to know, and we will have a society of selfish, self-centered individuals, a 'dog-eat-dog' world, and an ill-educated, wastrel underclass. That's always assuming we haven't gone too far down that road already to turn back.

Society,in general! We seem to be in a state of lethargy.

Yo have to look no further than the TV programs which show how todays kids fail miserably when put back into a 70's environment. I got 8 O levels including an A and two B's and 4 A levels B,B,B & E of which I am proud. Todays lot wouldn't even get a pass.if they took those exams. Sucessive interfering govenments and more recently one parent famiies have a lot to blame. Stop the kids messing about all the time and make them sit down., shut up, stop answering back and make them get on with some proper work.

Maggie Just for the record, I have been a single mother TWICE. My three daughters are all grown up now. They are decent hardworking girls, who can read and write, do not expect to get anything they have not worked for and treat other people the way they would like to be treated themselves. I talked non-stop (LOL) to my children from the moment they were born - no great intellectual content most of the time but a discussion of mundane events 'look at that dog! Isn't he big? What do you think his name is?' and other tripe like that, but all my girls could speak fluently from an early age and had a wide vocabulary. TV was strictly rationed to suitable programmes which I watched with them. I read them stories. They absorbed table manners because we sat at the table to eat, properly laid and with cutlery, not fingers. They all wanted to dress themselves from an early age and I let them, providing easy-on clothing. Yes, it took them an age to dress, but I would get on with chores while they were doing it - and what does it matter if they have their vests on inside out and backtofront? Tantrums I dealt with firmly by putting them into their bedrooms - false imprisonment? Funny that - not one of them ever tried to escape until they had calmed down. We would then have a cuddle and tell each other how sorry we were. Children learn by example - if YOU do not bite, scratch, hit, swear etc, then they won't (as a general rule). All around me I see mothers who only speak to their children to order them about, or shout at them - I would shout back, too, if I was that child. I see teenage mothers whose main interest is in themselves - as it should be when you are a teenager, but no use for bringing up a child. Most of all though, I see a society that sees no point in education. How sad this is. OC