General Chat

Rebekah, I don't object to you 'putting down' drug dealers but as a stand-alone comment your sentence didn't make any sense to me. You have added a lot of information to your sentence that makes a much bigger picture, and thank you, but in fairness, the two things you mentioned initially don't necessarily go hand in hand; and the Sun is much more like a comic than a purveryor of real and accurate news. I take what I read in there with a hefty pich of salt half the time. I agree, however, that given the law in England currently, the chances of a pit-bull owner being a criminal are greater than not. There's a clear disregard for the law in simply owning one, much less breeding the poor thing. Again, thank you for adding to your initial statement.

Im amazed I have to explain!!! What a world we live in if people dont like anyone putting down drug dealers...! Of course theres a connection. A responsible dog owner is a great thing. BUT this idiot has been seen by several people wrestling with the dog on his front lawn, using it to intimidate people, has taught it to bark at the neighbours, oh and he was found with £24000 worth of drugs in his car. So no, I dont think someone like him should be in charge of such a dog!! He was also witnessed LAUGHING with a friend after the little girls death. Thats a different matter, but whatever, there is a link between dogs and how they are (or aren't) controlled!

Hi Felicity,no Problem:-) I think what Rebekah was probably trying to say(correct me if Im wrong Rebekah) Is that this breed of dog is used by criminals,there have been 4 pit-bulls taken from a house today that they believe would have been used for illegal fighting. The criminal fraternity,do seem to like this breed, also staffordshire bulls too, there have been incidents of staffies being stolen for the sole purpose of illegal fighting and guard dogs for drug dealers.

Hi Felicity, I sit corrected - I thought these dogs were taught to fight 'to the death' and the only way to stop them was to prise their jaws open. I still maintain they shouldn't be around children. Gwynne

I'm sorry Roxanne, my comment should have been addressed to Rebekah, who stated - 'In The Sun today, the dogs owner is a convicted drug dealer.' Apologies, though still curious. Gwynne, I have a collie/wolf cross that tries to herd my chickens. Pit bulls are bred to fight, not to kill, even people who let their dogs firght don't want them to die, and the trouble comes when the 'fight' instinct takes over without the human intervention telling them when to stop. It's not much different from bear-baiting, as I understand it. Rainbow, you're quite right and I think it's a) overlegislation and b) the expectations of legislation that causes part of the problems. not just in this matter but with many things.

Sadly such tragedies will continue to happen because there will always be those in society who have no concept of responsibility or consequences. Not everything can be controlled by legislation unfortunately.

My understanding is that Kenneth Baker said that all pit bull dogs should be destoyed. They are illegal - any legal pit bull in the UK would be 18 years old by now. Pit bulls were 'invented' and bred over many years for fighting, just as collies were bred for herding. My friend has a Welsh Border collie that instinctively herds her children and their friends, although it has never been near a herd of sheep. In the same way Pit bulls easily revert to what they were bred to do - which is kill. The safety of children is paramount and the law has to ensure that. Gwynne

Hi Felicity, Sorry,I dont understand your question, what connection? Is Mr Baker,suggesting taking all pit bulls and similar breeds away from their owners and destroying them, how ludicrous!! and to be honest cruel! My mother has a staffordshire bull terrier,she is the sweetest dog you could ever meet, why?? because thats how she has been trained,with love and kindness . My bother also has staffies, the sad part is that some people dont know the difference between these two breeds,the look very similar,they are well trained and always wear leads when out,my brother is a very responsible dog owner. Anyone who thinks an animal should be euthanised simply because of its breed is not thinking fairly in my opinion,once again animals will suffer because of some humans who are irresponsible and cruel. Any Dog is capable of attacking,its how the animal is trained,bring back dog licences,and ban BREEDERS!!! Breeding should be stopped, there are enough animals in shelters,im afraid if someone is a real animal lover,they would purchase from a shelter not a breeder. All Breeding of dogs for profit should stop. This is a tragic story, but as I have said before could have been avoided,the owner should be made to pay for this too.

I cannot understand why in one part of the United Kingdom - all dogs are both licenced and registered and if a dog is picked up by the Wardens - there is a fee -plus a fine if the dog is not wearing the Register Tag. This scheme has been operating for over 20 years. Mind you also in part of the United Kingdom, new drivers display an 'R' plate (restricted driver) for 12 months - driving is restricted to 45 mph and if a violation occurs during the 12 months the period of restriction is extended. This scheme has been in operation for about 40 years - where is this you may well ask - in Northern Ireland so why not here?

This particular case would tragically have been no different if the chap had the dog muzzled in public, because this happened in the owner's home. I had a wonderful labroador cross, she would let the kids roll about with her, and lay on her no problems, but I was amazed at the people when we were out (no muzzle) and some children would come up and stroke her without checking first it was safe to do so, even if their parents were close by, they would not stop them. I used to try and explain that she was a very friendly dog but that they should always check before approaching a strange animal. She would snarl if you tried to take something from her such as her ball, if she wasn't ready for it to be thrown, altho most of the time she would respond to the command 'Drop'. On one occasion she got stuck under the garden table, not sure how, but I went to get her collar to pull/guide her out and she went for me so quickly I nearly passed out with the pain of the bite on my little finger where she caught me as I pulled my hand away. She never ever did anything like that again, but I never left her alone with a small child either.

I think the suggestion of muzzles in a public place is a good one Gwynne, and it's true that every child's life is more important thatn a dog's. However, in incident's like this it is easy to forget the millions of interations between humans and animals that don't end in tragedy. Life is a risky business. (There is much in our news presently about the foolhardiness of people who get lost in winter conditions and how they should carry a trailer-load of emergency supplies and equipment so that emergency services don't need to waste their time on rescuing the idiots - my interpretation of other's opinions, not mine I hasten to add!!) I'm sure that there are some dog-owners who would balk at the thought of their darlings being muzzled with - 'you wouldn't do that to a child so you're not doing it to my little darling who wouldn't hurt a fly' comments. What a wonderfully varied world we live in. :-)

I agree with a lot of what you say, Felicity, but children are far more important than dogs. I don't much care if it's the dogs are at fault or the owners. One child's life is, as Kenneth Baker said, worth every pit bull in England. All large dogs should be muzzled in public and always kept on leads in parks where kids play. Gwynne

Is there some connection, Roxanne? I know several pit-bulls and their owners. While it's true that some dogs are bred solely for fighting and the breed has become notorious for the strength it has in its jaws, I still think it is unfair to obliterate a whole breed on the basis of a relatively few irresponsible owners and resultantly vicious dogs. Many, many are loving family pets and though I agree with much of that Mr Baker has to say, I think the key is in responsible future breeding, not necessarily eradicating all the dogs on the planet - because that is the only viable option. EVERY dog is capable of causing great harm to a human being, even small dogs. More people are injured by breeds that we continue to believe are 'ideal' family pets, One final point - one of the pit bulls I know is not comfortable around small children and his present owner has no children and does not allow him near them unsupervised, in fact the dog is rarely out of human sight. The dog has never done ANYTHING except growl at anyone from a distance and why? Because his original owner allowed his small children to torment and tease the dog when he was a puppy to the point that he hid and shook when small people came near him. Another example of the irresponsibility of humans rather than dogs. I know that many of us can think of an example that is 'the exception that proves the rule' on our eyes, but that is partly my point.

I agree with Kenneth Baker - http://commentisfree.guardian*co.uk/kenneth_baker/2007/01/post_859.html Gwynne

Most dogs have a good temperament and respond appropriately to the treatment they are given. There should be no need for leads or muzzles when a dog hads been properly trained. Unfortunately some owners will deliberately buy a dog with muscle and then offer it nothing but agression. No wonder the beast attacks. I am not saying this is the situation in this case, but Pit Bull Terrier Type dogs (not a recognised breed, therefore hard to identify) were bred to fight. Nothing wrong in my opinion with a dog who will fight when told, but everything wrong with a dog who has not been trained to drop it. The responsibility must lie with the owners.

In The Sun today, the dogs owner is a convicted drug dealer.

from the BBC News website - Post-mortem tests showed the dog was a pit bull terrier-type breed, prohibited by the Dangerous Dogs Act. Two previous complaints had been made about the pet. Supt Jon Ward, of Merseyside Police, said: 'An assessment has been made by a recognised expert on the Dangerous Dogs Act, from the Metropolitan Police, and he has confirmed that the dog was a pit bull terrier type. 'The results of this post-mortem will now be included in the investigation and we will be speaking to all family members about the circumstances leading up to this tragedy. 'As soon as the investigation is completed, a report will be presented to the coroner and to the Crown Prosecution Service in terms of considering what offences, if any, have been committed.' It has emerged that the dog's owner, Ellie's uncle, was warned by St Helens Council last June about the animal's behaviour after it attacked another dog. A second letter was sent after the council received a complaint about the dog's barking. Several neighbours claimed the dog had violent tendencies and one man, who did not want to be named, said he had been attacked by the animal. The dog was shot dead by a police marksman at the house. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't understand the mentality of those who want to keep vicious dogs as pets. Gwynne

Poor little mite, bless her. Just before Christmas I had a phone call to say that a dog was in our field attacking the sheep. I went outside and saw a lurcher cross running round the field. Unfortunately, I couldn’t get in the safe to get the gun out and it attacked two of my little lambs and continued to chase the rest. Luckily a friend of mine then arrived and chased after the dog, but lost it on the estate. I phoned the police and told them about it and that I had an idea whose dog it was but they couldn’t come round for a few days, so we went round to the owner but his wife wouldn’t let me see their dog. My concern was that the dog had ‘tasted’ blood and would be back to kill more of my sheep or even worse, attack their children or others. The police did make contact with me and were going to put the dog on the dangerous dogs list if I could identify it. I had a phone call from the police this morning to say that the owner had now sold the dog, so unfortunately cannot say for sure if it was his dog that had attacked my sheep. Worryingly though, if it wasn’t his dog that did the attacking, that dog is still about, but also someone has bought a dog that was possibly going to be put on the dangerous dogs list!! Jxx

According to the report I read, the parents called at the house at 3.40am to collect the child, but she asked if she could stay where she was.......... The dog's owner was obviously not on the premises. And the dog had previously been reported as having attacked at least one other dog........... Reg

Hi Rebekah I think it would be wise to report the dog in question to the local Police. The Dangerous Dogs Act includes a clause that if a dog is dangerously out of control in a public place then the owner or the person in charge of the dog is guilty of an offence. I love dogs but the way some are kept makes me question the quality of their lives. For some, euthanasia can be a blessing. Bo x