General Chat

Dear All

Hello

Hope you are okay.


I am just glad I able to go to a place of worship, without harassment and threats.

Equally, if I choose not to attend that is fine too.


Rest in peace, little one. <3 and also rest to the those who give their lives for freedom.



Take gentle care
Sincere wishes
Elizabeth, EOS
xx

<3

Try asking Boris.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/whodoyouthinkyouare/new-stories/boris-johnson/how-we-did-it_1.shtml

John, as Rollo said, comparisons can not be made and different societies have different priorities. A ten year old in Cairo will probably have a far greater understanding of the (admittedly) confusing situation than a ten year old in, say, the Rhondda.

I also doubt very much that there are many "worshipping, praising and being happy" inside the targetted mosques at the moment.

They were quite likely spending more time constructing barricades than attending to religious matters.
That is certainly how it appeared on the live television footage.

Thanks Rollo.

It is so upsetting when a child gets caught in adult ideologikcal arguments that they have no idea about. This goes for Jewish children caught in the holocaust, Muslim and Christian and all other children caught in crossfire in war zones.

It is so horrible when churches, mosques and synagogues get targetted - particularly when people are worshipping, praising and being happy inside. What would a 10 year old understand about Copts and Morsi and Muslim Brotherhood. Poor mite :-( :-( :-(

Cheers Rollo - I agree with you one hundred per cent.

I guess that unlike most people posting here I have worked with and know quite a lot of Coptic Christians from Egypt. They certainly consider themselves as la creme de la creme and can be a right pain in the wotsit. By Egyptians standards they are all well off and some extremely wealthy.

The similarities in growing up as a Christian in the Orthodox church with western Europe are near zero. In the case of the Orthodox Coptic Church in Egypt or the Orthodox Assyrian Church in Iraq it is zero.

Thanks Choccy for link. :-)

"The holocaust" was not in any way the reason why the second world war was fought. Indeed the Nazi concentration camps started in 1932 and were in full swing by 1939. The UK government was as difficult as it could be in allowing Jewish people to escape to the UK though under pressure from the USA it allowed transit visas to the US. Given that Lord Halifax was in charge of foreign affairs and the German ambassador was accorded a quasi state funeral in London, 1936

http://secret-cities.com/2010/08/29/the-nazi-dog-memorial/)

that was hardly surprising.

It may come as a shock to many but the French government expected the UK to ally itself with the Third Reich right up to 1939 and the govt in exile never really gave up on the fear until Germany turned on its erstwhile ally, Russia.

Jewish communities were well entrenched with hardly any problems all over the middle east until the US inspired takeover of Palestine. Nearly all of the Israeli community in Israel are descended from US and European Yiddish speaking Jews rather than original rooted community. That is why they were forced to learn Hebrew rather than use Yiddish which is now nearly dead as a living language.

There are still powerful Jewish and Christian communities resident in some of the more tolerant Gulf states.

John I am sure you will find more accurate information by googling and looking at numerous respected news websites rather than ask at church.

one of many -

http://deprofundisclamaviadtedomine.wordpress.com/2013/08/09/shot-coming-out-of-sunday-school-in-egypt/

If the ethnic cleansing of Jews wasn´t a religious cause, what was it?

Have deleted. And I will not argue with you, Errol. Sorry.

Would appreciate any news thread relating to this incident. Just going to church for second time today to a different place, and will ask if anyone there knows anything about this alleged assassination of a little girl.

Absolutely no gross insult whatsoever. The World Wars were not as simplistic as that.

I do not see that I was trying to "score points" or "be clever".

Merely pointing out a few facts which anyone could google if they so wished in the interests of accuracy.

EDIT this may not make sense now that John has deleted one of his posts.

It happened several days ago and has been widely reported in the media.

Plus Egypt is an hour ahead of us anyway.

How would people be able to confirm it at church?

I think Sunday School in the UK is probably a little different compared to Egypt.

I was not aware that the two World Wars were wars of religion - must reconsult my history books.

I am still a bit cynical about the truth of this story. I tried to confiem it at church this morning and no one had heard it.

It seemed a bit early on a Sunday morning for it to have happened and been reported in so much detail.

But it certainly could have happened and children have been caught up in Egypt, Syria and so many trouble spots. And I travelled to my Sunday School as a boy with my little brother with my hymn book (he was under 6 as he got on bus free and I was 3 years older). Never even thought we might be attacked - the world seemed very different for children 60 years ago. There might haver been a lady on bus looking out for us, but I was never aware of that.

We pray for freedom and liberty to worship or not worship as we want, Errol. I am sure you know what tends to happen in religious prayer, and much of it is inclusive. But we also see Christian brothers and sisters in other countries being denied what we have fought for over centuries and in two World Wars.. And we all try to help if we can - and prayer is something we feel is very practical.

The M.B. does not represent a half of Egypt or anything like it, hence the current mess.

Over the last 50 years the Muslim Brotherhood was the only coherent political grouping in Egypt with the support of about a third of the population, mainly the urban and rural poor. ( In Egypt poor means poor, cemeteries are quite upmarket places to live ... ). The poor in Egypt tend to be be very conservative - you can see the same thing all over the Islamic world and also in Russia.

When elections were eventually held the liberal centre was a mess of small parties with no coherent ideas and very few people of any real ability. Mr Al Baradai has turned out to be a broken reed.

Thus the M.B. won the elections and were entrusted to run a democracy in the interest of all Egyptians. Nothing of the sort happened. Instead Morsi focused on writing a sectarian constitution based on Shari'a law while allowing the economy to go hang.

The assaults on the liberal majority continued without any reporting or much objection from finest in the BBC Newsroom, Sky, CNN and so on.

In particular the vital tourist industry was allowed to implode despite being the main employer of people under 25 - half the population! The reason for this is that the M.B. do not like having large numbers of "infidels" in the country spreading "dangerous ideas" ( such as democracy ) and still less "flaunting themselves " on the Red Sea beaches or drinking the excellent Egyptian beer.

Things got to such an impasse because Morsi and the M.B. flatly refused to change tack or moderate their policies. Waiting 4 years for the next elections while the economy imploded and the M.B. established a de factio Sunni religious state was not an option.

The current situation with a true death toll now in the thousands is lamentable. However the Muslim Brotherhood leadership were well aware of the probable consequences and cannot be considered to be innocent.

In the west people have a tendency to apply western models of culture and politics on to other countries and then judge them by it. They tend to forget that democracy even in the west is a young and tender plant little more than 200 years old at best and often established within living memory. Democracy has never been established without blood and tears. It appears to be dying in England through mendacity and indifference but that is a story for another day.

The best guidebook to what could have been the future of Egypt under Morsi that I can think of is Lenin's "Socialism in Once Country" - chilling.

Let us not forget the hundreds, and possibly thousands, of supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood who have been killed in recent days. We have seen images of mosques packed with men seeking refuge. Perhaps a more pertinent question would be to ask where the women are.
Many of these are innocent people and make up a far greater proportion of the country's population than the approximate 20 per cent Christians.
The interim government is looking at ways to "remove" the Muslim Brotherhood, supporters of the ousted Mohammed Morsi who, let us remember, was voted in democratically.
As for the 10 year old Coptic Christian girl, there is no irrefutable evidence to suggest that she was shot by a soldier.

Then, there were the images of the man, in all likelihood a Muslim Brotherhood supporter, shot dead as he stood in front of a tank with his arms raised. Again, there is no evidence as to who he was shot by and the various news services have been very careful to point this out.
I found it somewhat reminiscent of Tiananmen Square.

As for the news reporting. I have every admiration for the news services who are trying to do a nigh on impossible task in terrible conditions.
Highly respected and experienced Sky News cameraman Mick Deane was shot and killed on Thursday in Cairo.

The death of just one person is shocking but let us not shoehorn the facts to suit us.

John you mention prayer list for Christians. I would consider it far more "christian" if there were prayer lists for any of those suffering under such circumstances irrespective of religion!
Our thoughts should be with anyone in such a situation and not just confined to those who are Christian.

exactly Sharron

Sending a ten year old girl out to church, carrying a bible at a time when there is obvious religious unrest all around you ?

Could that be a bit of fanaticism as well?

nicely explained Rollo - I have much better understanding now

As for the dreadful killing of that little girl - sadly whoever was responsible has probably already forgotton all about it and will continue to kill in the same way - it'll make no difference at all