General Chat

Andysmum is correct about the salary of GMPs. However in any practice some of the doctors, those who own the practice, are not salaried but are partners.

Partners earnings vary wildly depending on the size of the practice, the location, the kind of patient and the size of their slice in the partnership which may be of considerable value. Some practices have a significant income from private work, it should not be assumed that all income is from the NHS.

Not counting the expenses of running the practice or fast cars etc partners will enjoy a pre-tax income from £ 50 K to £ 250 K for the most part. Some specialist practices have partners earning well over £ 1 M per annum.

Currently surgeons carrying out complex emergency surgery in NHS hospitals will certainly take home rather less than most GPs.

Many surgeons though have a mix of private and NHS work and make around £ 500K or even more. A lot? Consider how you might feel if you were to be under the knife and the relative pay of footballers and bankers. Cheap at twice the price.

Looking at facets of the UK NHS such as GP salaries, visits, food and so on and on is a bit like the old story of blind men examining a camel. Nobody notices the teeth. The whole thing needs a breakdown and redesign.

Whether this is possible or not is a moot point. For sure it cannot continue in its present shape without creating problems which will stretch any UK government to breaking point. That is why the UK is the only country on the planet to have such a well meaning but dumb system of health care.

Florence Nightingale said that at the most basic level of care nursing should do no harm. That same principle also applies to the NHS as whole. It is broken every day right across the country.

Campaigns such as that of 38 screaming against any kind of change will not improve matters. Scared politicians with elections coming up rarely make rational decisions. Neither does government by petition or any kind of populism.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9567689/More-than-700-GPs-earned-200000-despite-overall-drop-in-salaries-figures.html

From the BMA website.

The salary range for salaried GMPs employed by primary care organisations should be £53,781 to £81,158 (from April 2012 to 2013).

This will be gross pay, and I imagine the amount they have to contribute towards running costs of the surgery will vary considerably from one place to another.

IGP posted .................

GP's earn around £104,000 pa on average, with some earning over £200,000.


Could you please qualify and quantify please? Just to make sure that it is not wrong information.

Is this actual take home pay?

Who pays the costs of the doctor's practise ............... the nurse(s), the receptionist(s), a secretary or administrator, the building or rental of space for the clinic, the equipment, costs of disposable items (gloves, etc), stationery, computers, software, upgrading, maintenance, etc.?

Who pays the horribly expensive medical insurance that every doctor has to have?

Do these costs come out of those "earnings of around £104,000" or from somewhere else?

If from somewhere else ........... where from?

Do you know how much the GP actually does have left as "income"on which to live after paying all those bills?


I'm trying to work out how much your GP earns compared with ours ............ where Canada has a form of National Health

All people with an income above the poverty level have to pay a monthly amount to a Provincial Health Plan. For us, a retired couple, that cost is about $120 (ca £45-50) per month, plus another approx. $132 (ca £55-60) per month for Extended Health.

The Province then adds more money directly into the scheme to pay doctors, hospitals, etc et

For that we get .........

unlimited free access to GPs,
clinic usually open from 8:30 or 9:00 am to 4:30 or 5:00 pm, with usually a lunch break of 1 hour
free use of walk-in clinics, many of which are open much longer hours, even 24 hours
free use of Emergency (your A&E)
free access to specialists when referred by a GP,
all costs (surgeon, anaesthetist, etc, operating room fees, medication, etc etc) paid when in hospital, except for a small room fee if one is unwilling to be in a 4 bed ward

we have to pay the full cost of all prescriptions that are prescribed out of hospital .......... unless you are below a certain income level or have private Extended Health Insurance.


I know that ALL the costs I've asked about above are paid out of the money received by a doctor from the government

Every doctor is in fact a private business, and I assume that this also applies to many doctors in the UK..


I know of one doctor in the US working under their private scheme who was bringing in around $200,000 a year (less than £100,000) .......... and his take home pay at the end of the month was sometimes less than $100 (or £40-50)

I am NOT kidding!


so, just quoting the £ amount that a GP earns taken from figures published by the government can be a completely false representation of how much they actually have left to live on.

I well remember the uproar here a few years ago when the annual payments to specialists was reported in the newspaper, and one specialist was shown to have been paid around $2 million the previous year (roughly £900,000 depending on the exchange rate).

Close analysis of what he had received showed that .................

he had done more procedures in his specialty that any other surgeon ... because he was the best
he had a large number of patients
he had several nurses, a couple of receptionists, a clinic administrator
expenses for equipment (examination couches, magnifying equipment, etc)
high costs for disposal items such as non-latex gloves, couch covers, gowns, etc

It was uncertain as to whether or not he also paid all or part of the salaries of Residents that he was training


His actual take home pay was reduced to around$700,000 or about £300,000 to $350,000 when all those costs were taken into account.

Still not a huge income for someone who has gone through 5-7 years of medical school, 2 years as a Resident, 10 or more years of specialising in his area of expertise .................... and emerged from all that with a debt of around $400,000. Which was then increased by having to take out a loan to set up his clinic.


But the newspaper made it sound so bad ............... and those ignorant of the costs involved in being a doctor believed every single word of the paper.


Disclaimer ............. I am not a medical person, nor is my OH, nor any member of my family, close or extended.

I just watch and read everything very carefully.

The NHS is the largest organisation in the world, employing more people than than any other and having a bigger budget than any other. This is often put forward as a "good thing".

It is not a good thing. There are no other setups of anything like this size because they are beyond the capability of man or woman to manage effectively.

Instead the NHS, including GP practices, has evolved willy nilly into an organisation whose top priority is itself and it's survival. In saying that I do not blame anybody working for the NHS it is just the nature of the beast.

Other countries do not share the UK enthusiasm for cartels and quasi monopolies and with good reason.

So far two approaches have been made to sort out the mess, both operating in parallel and to some extent contradicting each other.

There was a management tool, long discredited, for managing by target aka tick box management. The Labour party are not renowned for their skills in man or budget management. It looks like Tony Blair must have read about this idea in some ancient book and half understood it. In any case it was inflicted upon the hapless NHS with the inevitable result of the debacle at South Staffs and elsewhere. A subsidiary of the tick box culture is top down hierarchical management which has also contributed to any amount of wasted money and a general feeling that somebody else is responsible.

The other approach was to establish "an NHS internal market" where different health bodies competed with both each other and outside specialists eg for back treatment or specialised operations, even ambulances. This has made some people very rich but has not delivered any noteworthy improvement in health care.

For instance the NHS has paid for a large number of state of the art radio therapy machines which could drastically reduce the pain and savage effects for cancer patients. Hardly any of them are in use due to rows between the NHS, govt funding and the union.

Any rational person without political pre conceptions should be able to understand that the NHS simply cannot be reformed in such a way as to deliver modern health care at an affordable cost. Most senior professionals in the NHS are very well aware of that.

As to how when and where to get to that point heaven only knows.
As the wee man from Ballymeena said, if I wanted to go there I would not start from here.

It is worth stating the bloody obvious though that the people paying the bill are not the ones receiving the care and vice versa. Such a relationship is doomed.

With the French system each and every person including the unemployed etc are paying customs via their "mutuelle" and can and do exercise the right of choice. That extends to GPs.

fwiw several of my relatives are doctors, surgeons and senior nurses. The above is what they and many of their colleagues believe. I guess they may know more than 38.

The problem is, Rollo, our NHS isn't the French NHS,
The current government has put forward so many half-cocked, unthought out ideas, if they start playing even more 'games' with the NHS, it's anyone's guess what will happen! :-|

One thing you can be sure of - it won't work for the benefit of anyone, but themselves and their cronies

The point is we won't have to be limited to how many times we see our Dr??

And he’s made a public pledge to "never" introduce a limit on the number of times we’re allowed to visit our GP.




jude :-)

France does have a national health service although the way it is organised and funded is different to the UK. It is also true that in France a visit to the GP will cost €10-20 up front. This may be reclaimed all in part depending on insurance status. There is no charge for children.

French GPs earn about half of those in the UK, spend several hours every day making house calls, especiallly in rural areas, and are adept at minor surgery eg stitches. They are also available in the evenings and Saturday morning.

France has no need of anything like 111 to back up a broken A&E service and dysfunctional private practice.

The govt can (and will) limit visits to the GP as (a) it holds the purse strings and (b) it can impose a condition on visits that they are clinically necessary. It is already the case that GPs have to be careful about costs and visits will be no different.

39 is barking up the wrong tree altogether.
So are many people on this thread.

France spends about the same on health care as the UK in terms of GDP. They get a very much better service for the money so maybe we should look hard at France rather than shout out loud for a monolithic NHS designed for the way we lived 60 years ago.

The point being?

:-D :-D :-D

Just received this from 38Degree's........:))))))))



On Tuesday we sent you an email about Conservative proposals to limit the number of times we could see our GPs. All 38 Degrees members were sent an email asking them to sign the petition even though this proposal would probably only have affected those living in England. I’m sorry if this caused any confusion.

The pressure we all put on Jeremy Hunt worked and it forced him to respond in 48 hours.

-----

Dear Jude,

Good news. It looks like we may have nipped it in the bud. Jeremy Hunt has been forced to respond to our 180,000-strong petition. And he’s made a public pledge to "never" introduce a limit on the number of times we’re allowed to visit our GP.

Here's what he said on twitter in full. He couldn’t resist being rude about us, but it's still positive news:

jeremy hunt tweet

On Tuesday, this was a serious Conservative Party policy proposal, being reported in national newspapers. [1] Now, it's "never" going to happen.

That's pretty extraordinary. By working together in big enough numbers, we've forced a leading politician to change his tune in just 48 hours. No wonder he doesn't like us - ordinary people, working together, are limiting his ability to damage our NHS.

This is what 38 Degrees is all about. Jeremy Hunt may grumble. But he knows he can't afford to ignore us. We're independent. We move fast. We stick to our principles. And most importantly of all, there are thousands and thousands of us, all over the country.





Yehhh:))))

IGP is that before or after tax and does it exclude practice expenses for example his/her share of the running costs of the practice.?

OFiTG.

You are very lucky that your doctor does home visits.

The only time my doctors will visit is for very eldery patient who are housebound and have no help in getting to the surgery.

NHS has gone to the dogs with this government.

I think with all the red tape & bureaucracy they have to put up with today GP, doctors and nurses earn every penny they get. For most part they do a good job with what they are given. That said I don’t think it's fair to let the patient suffer by adding a limit of times a year how many times a person can go to see his/her GP. People don't ask to get sick or be given an illness that has no cure but needs some form of management, or to be disabled in some way. If you ask me it's office boys gone crazy again & needs stopping.

If they said you could only see your GP a max of Four times a year but you knew you needed to see him, say at least once a month, (12 months in a year) what are you going to do?

GP's earn around £104,000 pa on average, with some earning over £200,000.

Due to my diabetes, heart and cardiovascular problems, my GP, not me, insists I see him every 2 months for an MOT. During these checkups he will ask if I have had any problems and if I say, for example, that I had a dizzy spell or stomach upset, he will ask why I did not come and see him, he gets annoyed when I say I did not want to bother him.

There are two doctors at my surgery and two practice nurses, both doctors are available Monday to Friday from 9 am to 12 noon and 4 pm to 6pm, between noon and 4pm they do their home visits. There is at least 1 practice nurse on duty in the surgery from 9pm to 6pm Monday to Friday, they also do home visits.

I think the doctors and nurses at my practice work hard and provide first class service :-)

I would add, that during a recent visit to my doctor, he tried to arrange an appointment for me with a hospital consultant, while waiting on the phone to arrange this, he said to me once he had to get through all the "bureaucracy" to get me sorted out.

In my opinion the problem with the NHS is "bureaucracy" to many clipboards and not enough scalpels, and that is why the cost of the NHS has spiralled :-|

That's how plans start. I have signed it.
Maybe if the government was to lower University fees so people felt they could go to University to train to be a GP it might be easier all round as we would then have more GP's in the UK. Just an idea.

It is not a plan of this Government, OFITG. It is just an idea being kicked around by some Tories (SELs?)

It probably wouldn't have the desired effect as those who don't visit the doctor much might feel they should visit their GP more often.

I am sad to say that it will never cease to amaze me what this government will stoop to. In their eyes, ordinary hard working people are all layabouts who spend their time lying on the settee watching television, smoking, and swilling beer :-|

This Old Etonian Boy's Club chaired by David Cameron will resort to anything to ensure that they succeed in implementing their ideological beliefs. It would not surprise me if they were looking at resurrecting the Poor Laws of 1834 and reinstating the workhouses of that era :-|

Having had my rant I am off to sign the petition :-)

Do you begrudge GPs having anytime off. Not only do they have to see patients in their surgery, they do home visits as well. Never mind having meetings to discuss patient care and changes The powers that be have brought in. Then they have to go home and do a lot of studying so that they keep themselves up to date. I know one Dr who starts work in his surgery at 7am - 6pm and finishes his studying at midnight most days of the week. Do you really think it would be safe if he had to work weekends aswell.

As for pay I have no idea what a Dr earns but in his surgery they have four Drs and they cannot get anymore due to patient numbers being low.They receuive so much money per patient. Also the surgery is too small to have another DR.

If I had to work 24 hours a day 7 days a week I think i would change jobs. They deserve a life too.

Maybe A& E should have a gp unit attached to them so they can refer minor cases to them.