General Chat

You are so right,Deanna!!

No Excuse, I have to say it frightens me to see such venom thrown at one section of society,it has certain similarities to what happened In Germany!

Have we not learnt from that,I think schools should be taught what happens when Intolerance and Ignorance prevail.

I think that the abuse of anyone on a train , bus, queue..... wherever.... is disgusting and says more about the abuser than the abused.

To come back Eldrick, and point out the disgusting things which are done in the name of religion does not alter the fact that two people were being openly abused while going about their own business.
The cruelty and abuse inflicted on others by the intolerance of others, does not excuse my behaviour if I am being intolerant.

Deanna X

Living in a Muslim country, I have contact daily with Muslims. I have spoken to them to some degree about their religion, and was surprised by some of the answers I received.
Islam acknowledges Christianty, and there are actually similarities between the Bible and the Quaran. Some I have spoken to wish that they like us had a "New" (testament) version of the Quaran, one that brought things up to date.
One collegue was sick, and on returning he told me it was Gods Will, and that something good would happen to him sometime as a result.
If they did something wrong, God would punish them at a later date.

This is very unlike me to post on the subject of religion, but like others, I do not believe Muslims should all be tarred with the same brush as the terrorists.

Going back into my shell now.

Rose -- an anecdote in reply to yours.

Some years ago ... like, 20 ... I was driving on the 401, the main highway from Montreal to Toronto and on to the US border. A schoolbus going too fast was passing a line of cars, and the kids were having a fine time, hanging out the windows flashing the peace sign at the drivers they passed, and you could see from their faces that they were getting a good response. I saw that the bus was from a First Nations community in the area, and the kids were "Indian".

So when they passed me, I grinned slyly and raised my right fist in the power salute.

A dozen faces went blank and slightly stunned. Then one kid got it, and word spread, and three seconds later they were all waving their fists at me and smiling and yelling.

Now, through a windshield I might pass as aboriginal -- brown hair and eyes. So they might have thought I was an activist of their own, and been pleased to meet me, and absorbed a little pride from the gesture.

I hoped they recognized me for the whitey I am, and took this as a gesture of solidarity that might have stayed with them. One whitey gesturing solidarity could have made a difference to something, somewhere sometime. Which would have been pretty fine for 10 seconds of my time.

I guess what I was really getting at Eldrick, and I may be at odds with the esteemed Dawkins here, I don't know, is that much as I despise religion, I don't actually attribute the ills of the world to it.

The ills of the world are the work of human beings, whatever justification or motivation they claim for their work. I neither excuse what they do nor condemn it based on their claimed motivation. I judge what they do on its merits.

And I don't hold anyone responsible for what someone else does, unless s/he has expressly urged someone else to do something or quite clearly tacitly condoned the doing of it.

If I can assume that you are opposed to the occupation of Iraq, do you think that it would be appropriate for an Iraqi to condemn you publicly, as an individual, for what your government and military have done? Surely there's an even closer connection there; you vote, you pay taxes, you make it possible for them to do what they do.

Would such condemnation of you, personally, not make you feel just a tad insecure? A little like you had a target on your forehead for anyone who opposed the actions of your government and military in Iraq?

Why do you think it is appropriate to condemn individuals for the actions of other individuals or groups who claim their common religion as justification?

Actually, most dictatorships, it seems to me, pursue a course of eliminating all institutions that might threaten to maintain or wrest control from their hands.... and so-called *organised religions* have always born the brunt of this... anything that has looked as though it might impede the authority and control is brutalised and decimated. Those allowed to remain *tow the party line*

Henry 8th and the Dissolution of the Monastries, the Crusades, Good old Ghengis, Hitler, Stalin. Chairman Mao, and even the more recent despots, where they have been unable to take control they have outlawed!!

Love

Daff ..... who is now well exhaustimicated cos I don't *do* debate and my brain is hurting!

xxxxxx

Ian, Stalin persecuted some people because of their religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union

Soviet tactics

The Soviet Union was the first state to have as an ideological objective the elimination of religion. Toward that end, the Communist regime confiscated church property, ridiculed religion, harassed believers, and propagated atheism in the schools. Actions toward particular religions, however, were determined by State interests, and most organized religions were never outlawed. Some actions against Orthodox priests and believers along with execution included torture being sent to prison camps, labour camps or mental hospitals.[11][12] Many Orthodox (along with peoples of other faiths) were also subjected to psychological punishment or torture and mind control experimentation in order to force them give up their religious convictions (see Piteşti prison). [13][14] It is estimated the some 20 million Christians (18 million Orthodox, 2 million Roman Catholic) died or where interned in gulags under the Soviet regime 2.7 million martyred under Stalin.[15]
Practicing Orthodox Christians were restricted from prominent careers and membership in communist organizations (the party, the Komsomol). Anti-religious propaganda was openly sponsored and encouraged by the government, which the Church was not given an opportunity to publicly respond to. The government youth organization, the Komsomol, encouraged its members to vandalize Orthodox Churches and harass worshipers. Seminaries were closed down, and the church was restricted from using the press.

Edit: I know this is not part of the Atheist 'doctrine' but is an example of how people can twist things just like they have done in certain religions

Could you elaborate on the following Eldrick?


*Anyone who follows any of these faiths must accept that they are following ALL of it. It is not open to picking which parts you follow and which parts you dont*

Surely it is the individuals/groups within a faith who have interpreted it in a way that suits them and not the Faith itself .....or have I misinterpreted your meaning?

Children who do this kind of thing are just doing it because they see someone who looks different. I doubt they know which religion they belong to.

Stalins always crops up. His murders weren't committed in the name of a god or not a god. They were rampant idealism.

Same as I wouldnt call the nazi atrocities committed in the name of God, depsite Adolf Hitler being a catholic and all german soldiers having Got Mit Uns on their belts and the pope refusing to condemn them!

Dawkins puts the Stalin and Hitler arguments to bed better then I can.

Eldrick, you are simply being disingenuous.

"Anyone who follows any of these faiths must accept that they are following ALL of it. It is not open to picking which parts you follow and which parts you dont. It either stands or falls as a whole, surely."

And you don't get to pronounce what that whole is composed of. To be specific, you don't get to pronounce that publicly executing homosexuals reflects a fundamental and non-negotiable part of the "whole" of Islam that all Muslims must agree to, let alone be held responsible for.

You've mentioned the atrocities committed by religious extremists in Ireland and by Muslims.

How do Stalin's mass murders fit in here?

Oi watch it.....you're stepping close to the mark now! lolololol

~~~~waves~~~ to Jeanette

lol I know , I mean Hull for goodness sake!

Actually what reminded me of the 'ginger hair' bit...was when I was a mature student, we studied the Holocast and one of the 'youngsters' 21 was surprised to see on film footage that many of the Jews being loaded on trains to Auschwitz...looked exactly like 'ordinary' Germans...ie they were not Hassidic jews in black coat-tails, hats and dreadlocks.
He had always assumed Jews were 'different' and that is why it was so easy to target them.

This young student had ginger hair and came from Yorkshire....it was said to hm how would he feel if ,having been a part of a society, he was suddenly excluded and vilified because he had a 'funny' accent and ginger hair.....? lol

lol Thank you, Lesley *blushes*

Kathryn, I totally agree with your comments on the Catholic Church - not the people who are Catholic, you understand, but the Pope and the mass murdering and genocide that he is responsible for.

But that is another topic.

By the way, my son's friends brother was targeted they think, at about 14 or 15 by a *teacher* at the mosque the family attended. The family dealt with it and moved him away, and he has grown into a fine and gentle young man, like his brother.

Love

Daff xxx

Good point Rose, but there's lots of reasons that make me feel this way, how some Brits talk to people in other countries when they're on holiday, how we still think we are superior in our religion, our culture, our life style when reality is so much different. I have lived abroad for nine years and used to feel proud to be British but now I'm not so sure.
Saying all that I still feel there are a lot of good things still going on in our country, how for example,
we dig deep to help out when there is a tragedy in the world, or how we always help when there is a disaster, but deep down I feel we are failing somewhere along the line or we would all be going about happy with all that is going on in our country.
I'm not very clever with words I just know what I feel............

Rose....are you telling me that this young man was taunted for being a muslim over the fact that he had ginger hair and was from Hull? Well, there's a first time for everything! lol

Of course there are good and bad. I'm not talking about individual morality - its the collective morality taught by religion that I take issue with.

Muslims in theis country will not condemn acts that we see as appalling atrocities - if you can stomach it look at http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm

Same as christians planted bombs that maimed and murdered hundreds of people in Ireland and the UK. Because of the were Catholics and wanted to carry out sectarian killings.

Anyone who follows any of these faiths must accept that they are following ALL of it. It is not open to picking which parts you follow and which parts you dont. It either stands or falls as a whole, surely.

well said Daff.....my gran always taught me that there are good and bad people from all walks of life.

oh hell Eldrick, ( oops no hell? lol)

of course most religions (maybe all) preach intolerance..but intolerance isn't itself dependant on religion/ religious teaching.....

Take away every religion and mankind will make another one...worship another 'God' ...'Money' for a start! and then the intolerance will still be there...because one of us has ginger hair, or bad eyesight...or a bigger house...etc..

LOL none of us on here have seen each other, know each others religious leanings...but there is enough intolerance just the same lol.

But I do like disagreeing with you sometimes...if only because you rarely take offence :))

A very close friend of mine from my school days got on a bus one day.... she was living in London, and was on her way to work.

She, and everyone else on that bus were minding their own business, thinking of the day ahead.

They were not taunting anyone, or belittling, or asking foul or obnoxious questions.

I will never be able to ask her what her actual thoughts were at the moment the bomb exploded and killed her.

My granddaughter has five godparents, with the blessing of the church she was christened in.... they are all close friends of son and daughter in law... one of them is Muslim, and he too is the kindest and most gentle of people. Each of the others has a different belief.. my son is Pagan! Their belief was incidental, it just happens that they are son and dil's closest friends, but the vicar (a woman) was wonderful, and welcomed this break from tradition, lol

I think we all have anecdotes on people who are either well or badly behaved, from all walks of life, all cultures and all religions... human nature is such that there will always be evil in the world.
That doesn't mean that we should accept it, we must try to root it out and address the issues that cause it.

Your son does you and himself credit, Rose. He sounds a wonderful young man.

Love

Daff xxx