General Chat

Good luck Lindy. Hope all goes well xx

Thats great lindy,they sound like a lovely little family,with plenty of the usual pressures of modern life,I am sure that they will be really glad of your help.
do you like baking,I wonder if the little girl likes things like that,she might love some special big girl time making something with you if her mum and dad let her.
Anyway it sounds like you are on the right path,a little bit of understanding goes a really long way
Regards Tania
PS Thank god your mother looked out the window when she did,I must admit i laughed out loud when I saw that,poor old neighbours kid

That all sounds very sensible Lindy.

I hope it all goes well and everything turns out for the best.

Sue
x

Evening everyone,

This is going to be a bit long winded so please bear with me.

Firstly, I would like to thank all of you that have contributed to this thread. Secondly, I have decided against making a report to social services but have not been idol...

My youngest son's new girlfriend, whom I have only met for the second time, told me it was unethical for her to get involved as she was not consulted. I respect her attitude, however, she did give me the name and number of a lady who deals with potential problematic children that are not yet in the system who would be able to advise me as she councils parents and children.

There is a bigger problem out there with sibling jealousy then I realized...I told the councilor the little I know about the family as I do not like to pry into other people's business. I thanked the lady for her advise and have her phone number which I have every intentions of passing on to my neighbor as soon as I find the right moment to do so.

I first met the husband when he was renovating the cottage next door, he is an engineer and has his own business. He asked if I would kindly let the electrical inspectors in the house when they arrived sometime during that week and left the key with me.

Two months later they moved in with a nearly two year old and wife eight months pregnant. It was not an easy pregnancy and the two year old was shuttled back and forth to the grandparents. I helped out where I could but some children just don't take to strangers...

The baby is a happy cute little thing with a permanent smile pasted on her face. She is always blowing kisses to everyone and will jabber away, so it is natural that everyone is drawn to her and inadvertently or not the elder child, because of her standoffish behavior, is over looked.

It makes sense that the eldest one resents the youngest one and most likely sees her as a threat. Her whole world has been turned upside down. Moved away from the grandparents and rest of the family, new house, going to day school, Mom going back to work...who knows what goes on in her little head. I am not making excuses for the child's behavior but merely speaking my mind as I see it.

This evening ( or morning where Mum lives ) I called her and asked her advice and she reminded me of a few instances when my brother and I were growing up. Once we tried to hang the neighbors' son from an old apricot tree that we had in the backyard. One of us had removed the handles from my skipping rope, put a noose around the kids neck, threw the rope over a branch and pulled from the other end. We had been playing cowboys and crooks and the kid was not in the least bit worried that we nearly strangled him. Mum happened to look out the window and saw what was happening and we both got a good old fashioned hiding. I have no recollection of this but have heard the story on a number of occasions, we were older then my neighbors' little girls.

On another occasion Mum had to pull Paddy off of me as he was sitting on me and strangling me. Twice he tried to drown me. I am three years older then him, but used to tease him something awful and he had a very quick temper.

As I was the girl he was not allowed to hit me. Being this demonic child who took pleasure out of taunting her younger brother I did not turn out too bad as an adult and Mother. I must say that I am very lucky with my two boys as the eldest has always been there for his headstrong brother and as an adult still looks out for him.

I have every intention of encouraging the parents to seek counseling. OH is on his summer holidays at the end of the month and this will give me the perfect excuse to invite them over for a BBQ which we always do during the summer months.

Lindy xx

I am still very concerned about this child.

I didn't suggest that she had a serious problem lightly. I'm a qualified and experienced primary teacher, Guide Leader and mother so have had quite a lot to do with children of all ages.

This is way beyond normal sibling rivalry and I fear it could lead to tragedy if not dealt with.

If I were teaching a class of reception children aged 4 and saw one attempt to strangle another one (knowing it was not the first time that child had reacted like that) then I think an educational psychologist would be called in.

If nothing else this family needs some sort of professional advice and perhaps they can request some sort of family counselling or an appointment with a suitably qualified psychologist through medical channels.

It's not a problem which is going to go away. I am still worried that the child also appears to not relate well with other people.

Sue

What worries me in all of this is that when the new baby arrived, the elder child tried to throttle it twice. That elder child would have been 2 years old at the time. How on earth does a 2 year old know about strangulation? Now, 2 years on the elder child tries to put a noose round the younger child's neck.

Where on earth has this child learned about such things? The worrying thing is that young children tend to learn an awful lot from adults. So is the older child being subjected to these things by an adult?

Yes, jealousy does occur between siblings and they do try to hurt each other....but they don't generally try to kill each other. This is something far greater than Super Nanny has to deal with!

Lindy....I don't envy you having to make a choice about what should be done but I'm sure you know it can't be left.

Jeanette x

A very difficult situation for Lindy and while there is a lot of good advice here I don't think i could begin to advise her because i don't know how things work in Portugal. It may be that if she reports it they would immediately remove the children, their ways are not necessarily the same as here in UK or in Canada.

Hopefully Lindy's sister will have a suggestion as to the solution but it is very worrying. And, actually we don't really know that the parents have not sought advice do we?

Lindy I don't envy you at all and I assume that their culture being different they would object strongly to 'outside' the family advice from you. Is there anyone else (Portugese) that you are friendly enough with and who knows the family that you could involve? It does sound like more than normal sibling jealousy.

Ann
Glos

Kathryn when I see a child at risk I dont suggest a cup of tea either and frankly I have seen plenty of at risk children over the years it is part and parcel of my job.
I report abusers in a heartbeat,I also report any family where I can see a child will be unsafe or neglected
I dont no wether you deliberately set the tone of your posts to be as antagonistic as possible or wether its just an unfortunate trait,so I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
If you in the course of your life saw social services in action you would know they are a double edged sword.
They are a godsend for abused children but they can also be a bloody nightmare for families who are caught in their systems.
parents can, and do,have children taken from them,an overzealous social worker can cause havoc and parents have to go to great lengths to prove their innocence....
Lyndi has said herself they are wonderful parents,they do not then deserve to have their family turned upside down by this agency.
What they do have is a 3 year old child who did something perfectly within the realms of a normal 3 yr old,we know it was dangerous but the child dosent.
she could have been playing horses or doggy for all you know.
The reality is that left unsupervised pre school children can and do do things that are a danger to themselves and others,it is the nature of the age group,it dosent make this family dangerous or dysfunctional nor does it make this child anything other than a normal kid,

Tania, we're agreeing to disagree, right?

"The difference is that you have decided this childs behaviour is dangerous and dysfunctional and I disagree with that."

How very queer of me, to hear about a child wrapping a string around a younger child's neck and choking her and "decide" that the behaviour is dangerous. Myself, I might look up "dangerous" in the dictionary and not have to decide anything at all.

"Im glad your sister advocated for 2 very ill children,that to me is completely different to two perfectly well children who are being cared for by there parents."

Yes, and I don't recall saying different. I just think that if we're going to haul our favourite experts in to bolster our analyses, I'll go with my own. Who, as I said, has been on the board of a non-profit parent co-op daycare centre for quite a few years, and very hands-on involved in its operation. I'll let you know.

"I am suggesting that lindy offer them a friendly ear.
This actually works extremely well"

IN SOME CASES that you know about. You do NOT know anything about this case, and I continue to find your insistance that an unrelated, unsupervised layperson take on this role to be irresponsible.

I would agree with that approach *only* to steer the parents to professional assistance, which is precisely what you are rejecting.

"They certainly need a hand but not from some over bearing government agency."

Over-bearing government agencies have child psychologists and social workers, and I have no doubt that you know that access to those services is the reason that posters here are suggesting a report to such an agency.

I see at least one child at risk, and when I see a child at risk, I don't suggest a nice cup of tea.

Kathryn I dont cite supernanny in any way other than to show its not unheard of behaviour,in fact it is fairly common
I chose that show because it is one most people in the UK are familiar with.
Im glad your sister advocated for 2 very ill children,that to me is completely different to two perfectly well children who are being cared for by there parents.
Calling social services in a country where Lindy herself said they can be anything but reasonable may be completely devastating for this family and they are not neglecting there children or doing anything wrong.
Once again I point out I am not suggesting Lindy direct them at anything.
I am suggesting that lindy offer them a friendly ear.
This actually works extremely well
and is the cornerstone of most coffee groups and informal meetings of mums where they get to see how other children interact and bounce many ideas of each other.
this in turn gives them the confidence to ask for help or to decide things are ok
The difference is that you have decided this childs behaviour is dangerous and dysfunctional and I disagree with that.
They certainly need a hand but not from some over bearing government agency.
Perhaps as a compromise Lindy you might like to speak to your daughter in law about parenting classes or suggestions where she might be able to access other help

So we agree to disagree, Tania, and Lindy can take the advice she chooses.

I don't watch Supernanny, which you repeatedly cite, or its ilk, and I would not cite a TV show as authority for how to deal with children who try to kill their siblings (whether they realize that is what they are doing or not).

My sister's been on the board of a non-profit / parent co-op daycare centre for years, and with two children diagnosed with Lyme disease after months of her advocating for them (and being subjected to the threat of Children's Aid involvement if she didn't stop demanding treatment for two very, very sick kids), she's rather familiar with this sort of thing. I'll ask her next time I'm talking to her. I think I know what she'll say.

Advising an unrelated third party to take on responsibility for this child's behaviour -- which is essentially what you are doing in your advice to Lindy, Tania -- is something I consider unwise.

We have no idea what skills Lindy has in that direction, or how likely the parents are to take direction from her, or how successful her or their efforts would be likely to be.

Fixing the problem is *not* Lindy's responsibility. As an adult member of society, she does have a responsibility to take action to prevent harm coming to children. But she is not personally responsible for the ongoing intervention needed to solve an obviously dangerous dysfunction within someone else's family.

I would never advise a layperson to take on that responsibility.

Thank you Kathryn
I agree sitting your neighbours down and having a word with them about their parenting would be the sort of action someone with their feet permanently in their mouth would do,on the other hand having a cup of tea with someone your friendly with and offering the friendly ear of a fellow parent is actually quite useful.
Lindy your a mum you know how hard it can be so just be sympathetic,It may be as Anne said she is really worried but dosent know how to broach the subject,a friendly unobtrusive chat about kids in general may be just what she needs to open up.
I stand by what I said before.
I have a huge amount to do with women including their preschool children on a daily basis.
This child is not a budding sociopath or anything else that has been suggested,it is just a kid with a behavioural problem,its not unusual
When you watch a programme like supernanny,you dont see Jo frost sprinting out of the house to call social services.
its something that can be dealt with quite easily withg some simple parenting skills and I still believe you are in a good position to help her.
I am all for social services in the appropriate situation but I dont feel this is it,

perhaps the parents are not brushing it under the carpet so to speak, perhaps they just don't know what to do - they may feel embarrassment over their eldest child's actions. Could well be they are working on it as we speak - they surely must be worried to - more than we think - let's hope so. It must be awful to have one of your children do something that terrible and have it witnessed by a neighbour, even though it was fortuitous that it was noticed. My sister was born when I was seven years old and it shattered my little world - things were never the same again and I really despised her - I never physically harmed her but I made her know that I didn't like her one little bit - she was a very destructive child and ruined everything I treasured - dolls, books, everything - I can understand bad feelings about a younger sibling.

That older child needs to be seen by a child psychologist and quickly.

If she seems unresponsive to other people then she could be a sociopath. Her younger sister is in her way and removing her would be something which wouldn't give her a second thought.

This doesn't sound to me like an older child experimenting to see what happens without being aware of the consequences. My older daughter tried feeding her little sister laburnum seeds out of curiousity once (having been repeatedly told not to eat them herself she wondered why). She was spotted immediately and no harm done.

Sibling rivalry often causes fights but this case sounds far more deliberately malicious and I fear it could get a great deal worse.

I think to take a piece of string and try to throttle the baby makes me believe the older child really did think she might remove her rival once and for all. Being so young she wouldn't be aware of how that might then affect her own life.

Sue

Well Tania -- the 4-yr-old may not be intending to cause death ... but that in no way means that she might not in fact cause the death of the 2-yr-old. Or, as was mentioned here, a serious injury.

Or even just some serious developmental / emotional problems. An abused child is an abused child, regardless of who is doing the abusing, and if this continues, the younger child is quite likely to have some serious problems of that kind. Remember, the neighbours are quite possibly seeing only the tip of the iceberg.

It is not neighbours' job to sit unrelated parents down and have a word with them about their parenting. Maybe in a different day and a different community, that sort of thing would have helped -- and of course that sort of thing was all there was.

These people quite obviously (a) do not regard the older neighbours as authority figures or wise elders to be heeded, and (b) need professional help.

Tania's and anyone else's suggestions about what these parents should be doing may be wise and wonderful -- and I don't disagree with them necessarily, although I would be considerably more loathe to diagnose a child I have never so much as seen. This behaviour isn't quite the same as pitching a tantrum to get attention. It's a little farther out there.

But no one's suggestions are going to solve the children's problems if the parents aren't heeding the suggestions. And that's something over which a pair of concerned neighbours have no control. And in fact such suggestions could be completely inadequate for the situation; we don't know, and that's what children's services are for: to find out what the problem is, and address it.

OMG Lindy what a difficult situation for you.

I've searched my soul to try and work out what I'd do in your position and although my instinct would be to seek outside help, you say there is a chance the authorities would take the children away rather than work through the problem........that's a hell of a thing to have hanging over your head. so I think that's a last resort.

Such a shame they want to brush it under the carpet........makes it so difficult to help but even though I'm sure the eldest isn't trying to deliberately kill her sister ....her behaviour is soo dangerous because if she keeps doing that she will. Poor baby.

I can only think that I'd take the compromise route and knock on the door and put my cards on the table about how I felt about what I saw and ask them bluntly if they intend to do anything about it.

If they are hostile or refuse to talk.......then I'm afraid I'd consider calling in outside help and I'd tell them that I would be doing so too.

I don't think this is the kind of situation that can be ignored, personally. The consequences of that are too awful to imagine .

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. My heart goes out to you and your OH
xx

Actually i must say I completely disagree.
This is a behavioural problem but not an unheard of one,in fact if you watch the likes of programmes like super nanny you will see its pretty common in todays too busy babysit the kids with tv and shove them off elsewhere world
Kathryn is quite right a 4 yr old wouldnt have a clue about the consequences of putting string around a little childs neck.
yes it may well have intended to hurt its sibling(some children are jealous) but would have no idea about death.
I personally think that contacting social services would be completely over the top and will result in all sorts of difficulties for this family.
I would offer them as much support in the way of a listening ear as I can.
let things settle down today then invite her for a drink,explain how worried you were and ask if you can help.
My suggestions to resolve the problem to the parent would be one on one time each day with this child doing anything at all(perhaps you can help mind the 2 yr old) with consistant positive reinforcement and praising of good behaviour,particularly for doing something kind.
This is generally always a form of attention seeking because of a lack of positive attention.
These kids get so caught up in seeking attention that they get on a roundabout of bad behaviour to get it
The 2 yr old is the focus because the older child sees its sibling as the cause of all its problems.
regards Tania

I know - that's just the best thing I could find on a quick google. Was just looking for some evidence that worrying about a pre-schooler killing or seriously harming a toddler isn't unwarranted fretting!

The incident with the youngest kids I think does show how kids that young just don't know what they're doing, in the sense of harmful consequences. Still at the age where "no" is pretty much "because I said so", not "because if you do that your sister won't be able to breathe and then she'll be dead". "Dead" doesn't mean much to a 4-yr-old.

And it's obviously a behaviour that started way before she had any clue what consequences are. Strange instinct though, eh? strangling a baby.

Kathryn, that was an interesting article and what a difference in the way of dealing with the children involved. I do feel tho that it might have been of more interest in the further treatment of the perpetrators had they been closer in age, the two lads in Norway were still young when they attacked the little friend, whereas the two boys in England were older so knew what they were doing, and purposely took James Bulger. The other episode was different in that the children knew one another and were originally playing together.
Dreadful to know of any children hurt or killed.
Liz

I'm with Shy.

You don't make a "complaint", you make a report. The report is of A CHILD AT RISK. That baby is at risk.

You make it plain when you report that you are not concerned about the parents harming the child and you are not reporting any parental misconduct. You are concerned about the welfare of both children because of the behaviour of the older child you have observed.

There could be a parenting problem, but that's not for you to figure out. You are just concerned about the welfare of both children. As any decent person would be.

When you do it, your neighbours might not appreciate it. You may not have friends for neighbours anymore. This would be unpleasant.

How unpleasant would it be if you saw an ambulance pull up to your house and take away a dead baby?

It's one of those times when it isn't about you. It isn't about your feelings or your concerns about your relations with your neighbours. It's about the life and health of those two little girls.

There's a report here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/highlights/001109_child.shtml

of two kindergarten children in Norway killing another child (assaulting her and leaving her where she froze to death). It does happen.

The four-yr-old is far from old enough to know the consequences of what she is doing. The fact that she doesn't know what killing is, and is not specifically intending to kill her sister, could make it all the more possible she would end up doing it.