General Chat

Hi i thought I'd post this thread on here as I am just asking in general and for a bit of opinions as well.

I have a few where the father is totally unknown but my great, great grandmother was also one but her father came forward and married her mother 7 months after the birth. She was then christened after her parents wedding, so at least he did the decent thing. I am very sure that he was the father.

My great, great grandmother was born Mary Ann Walder on 31 Dec 1863 in the sleepy village of Warninglid in Sussex, registered 28 Jan 1864 under her mothers maiden name and the mum was also Mary Ann Walder, aged 24, who was the daughter and granddaughter of quite successful wheelwrights. Mary Ann was living in Warninglid in the 1861 census with her family, no occupation.

The suspected father, Thomas Roberts, a 50 year old Domestic Servant and recently widowed was living a few miles away in Brighton and had been since 1857 when he left the 17th Lancers. His wife Esther died on 14 Nov 1863 after a long illness of TB according to cert, 6 weeks before his illegitimate baby's birth. I believe that before Esther died, Thomas and Mary Ann were having an affair while Esther was ill with tuberculosis.

Inbetween Feb and June 1864, Mary Ann Walder and Thos Roberts moved to Stoke Newington in North London where they wed in July 1864. Mary Ann was again pregnant at the time of marriage. Thomas had a 13 year old daughter by his previous marriage to Esther. His sister lived in London as well and Thomas got a job as a servant there.

Once married, Mary Ann's illegitimate baby became a Roberts and was baptised Mary Ann Kate Roberts on the 6th Nov 1864 as "Daughter of Thomas and Mary Ann Roberts". at the London church her parents wed. Thos and Mary Ann had their next child in March 1865, then had 4 more after that, one of whom was given Thomas mum's maiden name as a middle name. Thomas baptised her as his, so she had to have been and I have evidence they were regular churchgoers, so I am sure they wouldnt lie in church.

The 1871, 1881 censuses, 1878 poor relief application and her 1886 marriage cert all refer to Thomas as Mary Ann Kate Roberts father. Thomas is one of my fave ancestors because he had a colourful life and Mary Ann Walder was his 3rd wife. I do hope he was my blood ancestor. I'd be disappointed if he wasnt.

I think he probably was the biological father but is there always a small chance that he wasnt. Mary Ann Walder would have fallen pregnant in about early April 1863 if her babe was born in late Dec. The babe was born in the mothers home village where everyone knew everyone. Meaning Thos was still married but his previous wife was dying back in Brighton before her death in Nov 1863. Thos also had a well off cousin who lived not too far from Warninglid, and Warninglid is just off the London to Brighton Road.

I think they knew each other somehow quite some time before Mary Ann fell pregnant if they both moved to London from Sussex together in the spring of 1864.

Do any of you have any illegitimate ancestors or ones whose parents wed shortly afterwards.

Ben

I do, something that the family legend failed to mention lol

My Gt Gt Grandmother was illegitimate, this is on my mums side, though I do have a name on her wedding cert, I have been unable to find out anything about him.

On my dads side, well, it's quicker to list those who were born IN wedlock PMSL.

I'ts not really that bad, but there are a few!

Oh yes My Mum and her 2 sisters were illigitimate,
My Grandfather was a methodist minister in Brighton and Hove, sub postmaster and
director of Greens Cake mixes. He had a childless marriage and his family looked forward to a healthy inheritance when he died.
We dont know if his wife ever suspected his infidelity, she died a year before him,but his family were most upset when his fortune went to the eldest illigimate daughter!

my mum was, my nan and grandad married 6 months after she was born...... we only just found this out........ mum was in shock...lol
and my son is..... me and his dad married 2 years after he was born.....
xxxx

I am virtually 100% sure that Thos Roberts is Mary AK's real father. The fact they lived a few miles apart but still somehow knew each other just adds to the probability at the end of the day.

I dont think he would admit to being her dad if he wasnt. If he claimed fatherhood after he wed her mum, then he had to have been the dad.

In Victorian times, people knew not just family but also friends who lived miles away from where they lived, just like today.

Lindsey, how annoying that must have been for your grandfathers family.

Yes, marriage after birth was commoner than people thought in those days.

*hangs head in shame*

Loads .................all in Sussex where I still live:(

In our defence..........Sussex is full of villages and we don't get out much! LOL

oh yes OH,,its thrived without fathers,,,,

there are at least 12,,,,,,,,bn on other side ,,,,,,,,,!!

too many to mention:-))
I have been shocked at some of them too:-)lol

My grandfather and his 2 younger brothers were all apparently illigitimate, Their mother changed her/their surname after all 3 were born, which would make sense if she had married in the interim. However her brother also changed his name.
I've been unable to find a marriage, or any clue as to why her brother would also change his name. Family verbal history suggests that the 2 younger boys had the same father and my grandfather was the son of someone else - a "wealthy landowner". His whole personna was very different from his brothers apparently, so that would make sense.
I can see no point in my ggma changing the surname simply to make them appear legitimate, as they were in a small village and everyone knew everyone. This is my mission in life to find my great grandfather's name. When I heard about the landowner and discovered that the family were living on a farm owned by the Honourable FW, I chased him down for a while but eventually gave up. Apparently the birth father left my grandfather an inheritance in his will, but his uncle 'drank it'. All very frustrating.
mary
(who doesn't know if she is using her correct maiden name LOL)

my mother was, Her parents WERE married but not to each other, She hid this fact for years (tee hee)
But he did put his name on her birth cert.

Wow Marion.....................both sides of mine and my husbands family are Sussex born and bred for generations.

my lovely Mum was illegitimate as were seven of her siblings!!! only her youngest sister [younger than me] knew her father - my Mum didn't really have a clue who her father was so no family tree on that side!!

Warninglid is not too far from Haywards Heath and is within easy reach of Brighton, so maybe Thomas secretly visited his mistress while his wife was ill back in Brighton or something.

I dont know why with all the evidence I have, but it is nice to sometimes ask for others opinions on family tree findings.

Marion....Ducton, worthing, angmering and cowfold mostly.

Benjamin..............that seems a likely explanation.

Hi Kitty

Yes I would agree. Thos is my biological ancestor.

By the way, what names have you in Cowfold? Mine is Walder and Agate. 1700s.

Ben

Only about 10% of my ancestors weren't expecting their first child when they married.

My Mum was three when her parents married each other. My grandad had to wait for his 1st wife to die as you couldn't divorce someone who was in a mental hospital. My Nan hadn't bothered to divorce her 1st 'cos grandad's wife wasn't expected to die.

my ggg grandmother on my mum's side had a daughter 5 years after my ggg grandfather died & 2 years before she married her 2nd husband.
Then the daughter had a son!
Also my sister & 3 brothers were, my parents married 9mths before i was born. now that was a shock to my family. lol
val

Not only was my grandfather illegitimate but when his mother eventually married his father I suspect that the marriage was bigamous.

Ben,
Could Mary Ann have been the nurse to Thomas's first wife?

Of course a single pregnant woman would have very little means of supporting herself and we tend to forget that marriages were not made in heaven they were a way of investing in your and your childrens future. Equally, a man looked for a wife to keep house for him, and if widowed he would need someone pronto to look after the kids.

Benjamin in Cowfold Akehurst's by the dozens!

xx