Genealogy Chat

For reasons of getting a dual passport my stepdaughter has posed me the following for which I would dearly love your input.
Her great grandfather James Patrick Byrne, born Kilkenny, Ireland c1920, she would like his BMD and burial place.
Her great grandmother, Margaret Glynn, born ?morris, Ireland c1920. She would like her BMD and burial place , said to be Weaste Cemetery, Salford, Lancashire [or Greater Manchester].
Hoping you super detectives can help as my brain has now reached the no thinking stage. TIA. Dave.

Do you think they both died in England. How old do you think they were when they died.?

Do you think they married in Ireland or England.?

Have you looked at search members trees to see if anyone has them in their trees?

When you find their details English certificates can be bought from the GRO, then possibly PRONI or Dublin.

Burial places are more difficult. You may find them on deceased online, otherwise you need to ask the local authority, cemetery division.

Because of the different surnames, I assume that James Patrick Byrne and Margaret Glynn, nee ?morris, were not married to each other, but are from different sides of your step-daughter's family.

Is that correct?


Your stepdaughter really needs to work back to these people via her parents and grandparents.

Who did each of them marry?
Which child of each of them is your stepdaughter's grandparent? and were those children born in England/Wales?

Contact details to ask about Margaret's possible burial in Weaste Cemetery:


Name
Agecroft Cemetery and Crematorium
Address
Langley Road
Pendlebury
Salford
M27 8SS
Map to this location
Telephone
0161 686 7290
Email
[email protected]
https://www.salford.gov.uk/births-marriages-and-deaths/cemeteries-and-crematoria/weaste-cemetery/

Findagrave shows several people named Glynn in that cemetery, but not Margaret.
I don't know if Findagrave lists all the graves in the cemetery or not.
https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2153336/weaste-cemetery

Margaret Glynn was born in Claremorris, Ireland.
Unknown where James & Margaret married at this time.
They were her married grandparents.
Both died in Salford, Gtr Manchester.
The grave of Margaret will be listed under her married name I assume, Byrne.
Not looked at search members trees, where do I find that please?
My apologies for being vague here as I am out of my depth.

Oh, I see! I thought that "born ?morris" meant that her married name was Glynn and you thought her maiden name was perhaps Morris.

Now searching with proper understanding of the names - there's no sign of their marriage in England/Wales - nor on irishgenealogy.ie.


"Search all member trees" is under "Search" at top right of this page.

If your search for either James or Margaret (or any other relation) brings up anyone who sounds likely, click on "Find out more" beside the tree owner's name, and explain your interest.

Margaret’s birth ??

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1919/01245/1517426.pdf

Your Step daughter only needs proof of birth, marriage and death of one of her Irish grandparents. Also bmd of her parent.

One sure-fire way to pursue Irish citizenship is via your Irish grandparent(s).

Now, it may not be the most seamless approach. In fact, the application process is long, and there are a hefty amount of documents to procure. Saying that it is a valid and achievable method nonetheless.

Firstly, you will need to call your local Irish consulate or embassy and acquire the necessary forms. Depending on your current citizenship status, appropriate forms and documents may vary. If in doubt, it is always best to check with your local advisor.

Usually, you need to be able to provide your grandparent(s) birth certificate from Ireland. If you do not have this, you should start here: https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/General-Register-Office.aspx/

You will also need your grandparent’s certificate of marriage, your own parent’s marriage certificate and death certificates if any of the above have passed.

If no members of the above have deceased, you will have to show proof of current ID (passport, driver’s licence et cetera).

At least one grandparent must have been listed as an Irish citizen to get an Irish

Possibly Margaret's birth ???

SR District/Reg Area - Claremorris
Birth of MARGARET GLYNN on 18 March 1919
Name MARGARET GLYNN
Date of Birth 18 March 1919 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Group Registration ID 1716325
SR District/Reg Area Claremorris
Sex Female
Mother's Birth Surname PRENDERGAST

Father: Pat Glynn, farmer
Mother: Mary Kate Glynn, formerly Prendergast.
Address: Culticrehan

So finding her great grandparents is unnessary. (Rootgatherer 22.19) she just needs to prove only one of her grandparents were Irish citizens.

So you need to search for the births of James & Margarets children.

Edit: There is a John Patrick Byrne who died in Salford 1/7/1919 - 2nd Quarter 1969
and a Margaret Byrne 21/2/1922 - 4th Quarter 1998

Reading between the lines, I don't think it's a case of just getting her passport. I think she really wants to know about her roots as her father and stepmother kept all this from her. Tracy knew of her grandmother but was too young to remember much. She does know they were both deceased in Salford and her grandmother was buried as stated above. According to my wife Frances, Christopher Thomas's 1st wife,
James & Margaret had 7 children. Due to his service in the army 3 were born in Ireland, 1 in India, 2 in France and Christopher in England in Cooke Street, Hulme Manchester. Once again, my apologies for this being a bit disjointed. I am getting answers to questions as they come to mind.

So would Christopher be the eldest
.
Births Mar 1938
Byrne Christopher T Glynn Manchester N. 8d 542

Christopher
District Manchester
Last name Byrne
Register number 890
Gender Male
County Lancashire
Birth day 18
Volume 38
Birth month 12
Page 1210
Birth year 1937
Country England
Age -
Record set England & Wales Deaths 1837-2007
Death quarter 3
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Registration Month 8
Subcategory Civil Deaths & Burials
Death year 1990
Collections from Great Britain, England
(c) brightsolid online publishing ltd


So would the parents be only late teens when he was born ?

For info re Margaret's burial, you or your stepdaughter need to contact the cemetery - contact details already posted.

Her grave doesn't appear on Findagrave.

Wrong Christopher. He was born on January 17th 1938 at 29 Cooke Street, Hulme, Manchester. He died in 2008 in Salford Gtr Manchester.

A tree on Ancestry says Margaret was born 10 June 1919.

However, the proof offered is this:

Ireland, Civil Registration Births Index, 1864-1958
Name Margaret Glynn
Date of Registration 1919 Apr-May-Jun
Registration district Claremorris
Birth Country Ireland
Volume 4
Page 119
FHL Film Number 101078

I suspect that's the record already posted, with DOB 18 March 1919.
At least, it's the only one showing on irishgenealogy.ie.

The birth already posted (18 March 1919) was registered on 17 May 1919, and would therefore show as registered in Apr/May/Jun qr of 1919.


The tree also claims she died in Liverpool in 1970 - which matches the DOB they have assumed is hers - but I think is a different woman:

Margaret Byrne
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Margaret Byrne
Death Age: 50
Birth Date: 10 Jun 1919
Registration Date: Apr 1970[May 1970] [Jun 1970]
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration District: Liverpool
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 10d
Page: 554


Ancestry suggests that the Claremorris birth relates to that death, and I suspect the tree owner has assumed that's correct, but hasn't checked the details.
Ancestry's suggestions are only suggestions, and are often wrong.

Re Christopher's birth -

the one posted by Shirley, registered in Manchester, is the correct one.

It's the only birth of a Christopher Byrne with mmn Glynn.

The birth in January would be registered in the Jan/Feb/March quarter, which shows as just "Mar" in a FreeBMD transcription.
The month shown in a FreeBMD transcription isn't necessarily when the event took place - it's just the last month of the three during which the event was registered.

Here's Ancestry's mis-spelled) transcription of the birth record:

Christpher T Byrne
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1916-2007
Name: Christpher T Byrne
Registration Date: Jan 1938[Feb 1938] [Mar 1938]
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration District: Manchester North
Inferred County: Lancashire
Mother's Maiden Name: Glynn
Volume Number: 8d
Page Number: 542



However, the 2008 death you mention will be correct:

BYRNE, CHRISTOPHER THOMAS 1938
GRO Reference: DOR Q1/2008 in MANCHESTER (0061J) Reg 1J005 Entry Number 500716296

Re Christopher's siblings born in Ireland -

there are twelve Byrne/Glynn births registered variously in Dublin, Rathdrum, and Galway, 1937-54, on Ancestry, but I can't see the images of these to check parents' names, so can't say which might be Christopher's siblings.

EDIT:
The two births in 1937 won't be relevant if Christopher is the eldest child, so that reduces it to 10 possibilities.

Catherine P, 1940 Dublin
Garret, 1940 Rathdrum
Anette, 1946 Dublin
Elizabeth A, 1946 Dublin
Silvester, 1948 Dublin
Maria A, 1951 Galway
Patricia, 1951 Dublin
Christine, 1953 Dublin
Helen A, 1953 Galway
Patrick I, 1954, Galway

Okay, so I think you are way out on the years of birth for James and Margaret. Unless this is a Co-incidence, they married on 1st. January 1923 in Kilkenny. Both were full age. James is a soldier and his father, James was a shoe maker. Margaret’s father, Patrick was a labourer.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1923/09176/5318789.pdf

I think this may be them in 1939

Margaret Byrne in 1939
1939 Register
101 Radnor Street, Oldham, Manchester C.B., Lancashire, England
1939 register badge

Household members (10 people)

First name(s) Last name(s) Birth date Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule sub number

James Byrne 12 Jan 1889 Male Retired (Dis Pension) Married 12 1
Margaret Byrne 13 Aug 1900 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 12 2
The record for this person is officially closed.
The record for this person is officially closed.
The record for this person is officially closed.
The record for this person is officially closed.
The record for this person is officially closed.
The record for this person is officially closed.
The record for this person is officially closed.
The record for this person is officially closed.

James’s birth

Name JAMES BYRNE
Date of Birth 1889
Group Registration ID 10426232
SR District/Reg Area Kilkenny
Sex N/R
Mother's Birth Surname N/R


Father James is a Shoemaker, mother Mary formerly (looks like) Clohosey.