Genealogy Chat

Not yet ,but I have his adopted sisters certificate and she put William Jones as her father .. Robert Williams (Mary Jane's husband) had passed away before she married Killed in a colliery accident.

I have just found Mary Jane and Robert on the 1921 census . In Temple Street . Same address as their wedding . With five more children :-0 : :-S .And now know they are the same family in Bridgend in 1939 ,so he wasn't the one killed in the colliery accident in 1919.

Got the Wedding certificate for Thomas and Doris in1936 He was living in 24 Kings Terrace Nantyffyllon . She was living in 20 Kings terrace . I cannot find either of those addresses on the 1921 census . His father's name is given as William Jones (Deceased ) as I thought it would be . Her father is John Thomas (Deaceased) Witnesses are J G Thomas and Frederick Ronald Herbert .

Is his middle name Gregory on the marriage cert?

The second initial is certainly G per freebmd

Yes - and on Ancestry, posted on pages 4 and 5.

However, FWG hasn't given the middle name when quoting the details above , and it's crucial in this instance.

There are huge numbers of Thomas Joneses with fathers named William!
And several possible middle names starting with G.

Too true!

BUT......I thought Thomas Gregory Jones had been eliminated as his mother was JONES and the poster is looking for Davies

So much uncertainty - and very few proven facts

And, looking back through this long and complicated thread, Thomas Gregory Jones was born on 13 Jan 1913, per death and baptism records posted on 20 Dec., whereas FWD says her Thomas was born 25 Dec 1912 .

So confusing - and not helped by all the very common Welsh surnames - not to mention the possibility of adoption.

Aaagghhh!

Yes .Gregory is on this certificate ., . And and his adoptive parents were living in Kings Terrace in 1911 with his adopted sister . Rosie .
Erica H The confusion with the surname is because Thomas 's Birth Morther was Mary Jane DAVIES Unmarried when he was born but living with Robert WILLIAMS in 1911 who she married in 1915 . Thomas was born in 1912 I do not know when Annie and William JONES took him on but he is JONES on the Census Marriage and Death certificates . Still trying to find a birth certificate . :-S the 1939 Register gives his birthday as 25 December 1912 .Don't know if that is correct Could the 13th January be the date the birth was registered. or cit be an "adoption"date given to him by the Jones's As we know there were no official adoptions at that time so no paper trail .
I have spoken with someone who knew him and he was definately still alive in the
middle 1960's
:

13 January is the date which informants gave as his date of birth, when he was baptised, and when he died.
It may or may not be correct.

If his adoptive parents chose to celebrate his adoptive date rather than his actual birth date - we'll never know.

But in 1939 his DOB is given as 25 Dec 1912 - so who knows?!


To repeat what's been said before -
Thomas's birth is registered as JONES, and was an illegitimate birth, which means his mother's surname was JONES. Not Williams or Davies.
You've got the birth cert - his mother was Ellen Jones.

I don't think you said what the DOB was on the 1913 birth cert?

There is no other birth of a Thomas Gregory Jones around that time in Wales.

No, You had the right family before ,on page 1. 5 Apr 2019 Thomas's Mother And Roses mother was Mary Jane DAVIES she married Robert WILLIAMS . Their adoptive parents were Annie and William JONES' Rose is on the 1911 census (as DAVIES) with her birth mother and Robert Williams . Thomas wasn't born until 1912 .I din't know if Robert was Rose's father . Though the census says they were married five years their actual wedding was in Lngynwyd Maesteg in 1915.
Rose Ester Davies
in the 1911 Wales Census
Name: Rose Ester Davies
Age in 1911: 8
Estimated birth year: abt 1903
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Maesteg, Glamorgan, Wales
Civil Parish: Llantrisant
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street address: 6 Brick Yard House Penycoedcae Nr Pontypridd
Registration district: Pontypridd
Registration District Number: 589
Sub-registration district: Llantrisant
ED, institution, or vessel: 05
Household schedule number: 97
Piece: 32297
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Williams 28
Mary Iane Williams 24
Rose Ester Davies 8
So I don't know if Thomas wes registered as DAVIES his mother's maiden name , WILLIAMS her "married" name or (if he was given up as a baby ) did the JONES' s give him their name

The birth SHOULD have been registered as Davies, but, if Williams was the father, and was present at the registration, it COULD have been Williams AND Davies. All of this assumes that they told the truth ;-) ;-)

How do you KNOW that the mother of Thomas Jones was this Davies woman?

What was the DOB on the 1913 birth cert?

And if his mother was Mary Jane Davies, who was Ellen Jones? Or are you thinking that the child registered as Thomas Gregory Jones was a completely different person?

There is no birth registration anywhere in England or Wales, 1912-13, for a Thomas G Williams, with mmn Davies.
The only Thomas G Davies with mmn Davies is this one, whose middle name isn't Gregory, and whom I'm not suggesting is related in any way:

DAVIES, THOMAS GEORGE RONALD mmn DAVIES
GRO Reference: 1913 M Quarter in LLANDILOFAWR Volume 11A Page 2628



Without any documentary proof, Rose and Thomas Gregory weren't necessarily blood siblings, even though adopted by the same family, and therefore growing up thinking of each other as brother and sister.

What was the ADDRESS on the birth cert for Thomas Gregory Jones with unmarried mother named Ellen Jones?
Who registered the birth?

The Llandilofawr birth was legitimate

On the baptism record (13 Feb 1913) posted on page 5, Ellen's (or maybe only Thomas's by that time) address was Cordygric Institute - ie - Pontypool Workhouse.

The Birth Certificate details.
:Born :Thirteenth January 1913 . Mother:Ellen Jones . Residence : Coedygric House Griffithstown as per declaeation dated 13th February 1913 Registered Fourteenth February 1913 Registrar : Michael Gorman .
As you just said Coedygric house was a workhouse .
My father and his siblings knew Thomas and Mary Jane .but my father was about 9 years old when he first got to know her . They knew that Mary Jane was Rose's mother and as far as they knew she was Thomas's mother as well .But they did not call her Granny . The only one they called Granny was Annie Jones
To correct an earlier post . I said Robert Williams was killed in an accident in 1919 . This is wrong. Now I have the 1921 census I have found him still with Mary Jane and three more children. . and in 1939 they have two more .

The Birth Certificate details.
:Born :Thirteenth January 1913 . Mother:Ellen Jones . Residence : Coedygric House Griffithstown as per declaeation dated 13th February 1913 Registered Fourteenth February 1913 Registrar : Michael Gorman .
As you just said Coedygric house was a workhouse .
My father and his siblings knew Thomas and Mary Jane .but my father was about 9 years old when he first got to know her . They knew that Mary Jane was Rose's mother and as far as they knew she was Thomas's mother as well .But they did not call her Granny . The only one they called Granny was Annie Jones
To correct an earlier post . I said Robert Williams was killed in an accident in 1919 . This is wrong. Now I have the 1921 census I have found him still with Mary Jane and three more children. . and in 1939 they have two more .

Hmmm - well, that's definitely the man who married Doris.

Going by name alone, he does seem to be the Thomas Gregory in 1921 and 1939 - though why the DOB is stated as 25 Dec 1912 in 1939 is a mystery.

I suggest it's just a mistake by the clerk - if the 1939 record is the only reason you thought his DOB was 25/12/1912.

He's clearly not a blood brother of Rosie - just another child adopted by William and Annie.

If he was adopted at or soon after birth, he probably named William Jones as his father when he married, because William was the only "father" he had known.
Or perhaps he didn't want to admit that he didn't know who his father was.

I wonder if Ellen was any relation of William - but it's such a common name.
I don't see any obviously likely Ellen Jones in 1911.

I know my father had a 'cousin' Dora Jones who was related to Annie and William She was blind Dora Jones in 1939
1939 Register
20 Rolls Avenue, Monmouth, Monmouth M.B., Monmouthshire, Wales
1939 register

Household members (6 people)
First name(s) Last name(s) Birth date Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule sub number
John Jones 08 Sep 1884 Male General Labourer Married 209 1
Mary J Jones 21 Jul 1886 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 209 2
Dora Jones 16 Nov 1917 Female Incapacitated - Blind Single 209 3
Ivor Jones 10 May 1925 Male At School Single 209 4
Donald (Gordon) Jones 08 Nov 1929 Male At School Single 209 5
Raymond Jones 06 Jun 1931 Male At School Single 209 6
Trying to trace exactly how they were related to see if that gives us any clues .
After more searching we now think Annies Maiden name was Dobbs and she was from Monmouth .

Can I ask - why do you think Annie's name was Dobbs? (and not Davies or Jenkins, as you've thought previously.)

I don't see any marriage of an Ann* Dobbs to a William Jones.

There's this marriage of an Annie Elizabeth Dobbs in Bedwelty in 1890 - but later censuses prove that she married James Healy, and not William Jones:

Marriages Jun 1890 (>99%)
DOBBS Annie Elizabeth Bedwelty 11a 160
HEALEY James Bedwelty 11a 160
JONES William Bedwelty 11a 160


Also, if the family of Annie, William, and son William Jones in Maesteg in 1911 is the correct family - there's no birth of a William Jones with mmn Dobbs c 1890.

1911 says that Annie and William had been married for 22 years, which would mean 1889 - though of course there's always room for human error.