Genealogy Chat

As Erika says, you'll need to buy the birth certs to find out their parentage.

Wow
One could not believe the complexity of ones past family history.
This certainly is a forward move, but it does leave the question of the other grandchildren
It is very much appreciated.
Many thanks
John :-)

Name: Leslie Herbert W Sandford
Death Age: 86
Birth Date: 6 Dec 1903
Registration Date: Dec 1989
Registration district: Ashford
Inferred County: Kent
Volume: 16
Page: 145

To find out whose children the others were, you will probably have to invest in copy birth certs

Or, if you live within reach of Kent Records Office, pay a visit and see if there are baptism records for them

Re Kate's "husband" John Overing -
looks like he was married already, and therefore couldn't marry Kate.

UK, Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Soldier Service Records, 1760-1920
Name: John Overing
Enlistment Age: 22
Birth Date: abt 1870 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Birth Place: Sheffield Yorkshire <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Enlistment Year: 1892
Regiment: Royal Artillery
Regimental Number: 92085
Attestation Paper: Yes


The Pension record posted earlier by ErikaH , listing Kate and children, says he had previously been a gunner, GA, No 92085.

He seems to have changed his job several times. In 1914 his occupation was Attendant at Picture Palace. In 1911 he was an insurance agent. In 1901 he was a fish & fruit salesman.

John Overing
in the 1911 England Census
Name: John Overing
Age in 1911: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1871
Relation to Head: Spartinents [ apartments ]
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Sheffield, Yorkshire, England <<<<<<<<<<<
Civil Parish: Great Grimsby
County/Island: Lincolnshire
Country: England
Street address: 42 Newmarket St Grimsby
Marital status: Married <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Occupation: Insurance Agent
Registration district: Grimsby
Registration District Number: 422
Sub-registration district: Great Grimsby
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Piece: 19958
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Pickering 72 [ mistranscribed - a different household ]
Sarah Ann Pickering 62 [ ditto ]
John Overing 40


John Overing
in the 1901 England Census
Name: John Overing
Age: 30
Estimated birth year: abt 1871
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Spouse: Caroline E Overing
Birth Place: Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Laceby
Ecclesiastical parish: St Margaret
Town: Laceby
County/Island: Lincolnshire
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation: Fish & fruit salesman
Registration district: Grimsby
Sub-registration district: Great Grimsby
ED, institution, or vessel: 67
Neighbors:
Piece: 3097
Folio: 44
Page Number: 14
Household schedule number: 102
Household Members:
Name Age
John Overing 30
Caroline E Overing 32
Lilly E Overing 6


His wife and daughter in 1911:

Caroline Overing
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Caroline Overing
Age in 1911: 42
Estimated birth year: abt 1869
Relation to Head: Housekeeper
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Driffield, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Great Grimsby
County/Island: Lincolnshire
Country: England
Street address: 376 Victoria Street
Marital status: Married
Registration district: Grimsby
Registration District Number: 422
Sub-registration district: Great Grimsby
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Piece: 19954
Household Members:
Name Age
Herbert Gibson 43
Caroline Overing 42
Lilly Overing 16


Caroline later married Herbert:

Caroline E Overing
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1916-2005
Name: Caroline E Overing
Registration Date: Jan-Feb-Mar 1923
Registration district: Sculcoates
Inferred County: Yorkshire East Riding
Spouse: Herbert Gibson
Volume Number: 9d
Page Number: 285

She was finally free to remarry then because John had died a few weeks or months earlier:

John Overing
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: John Overing
Death Age: 51
Birth Date: abt 1871
Registration Date: Dec 1922
Registration district: Chelsea
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a
Page: 432

Her first marriage to John Overing:

Caroline Elizabeth Holmes
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name: Caroline Elizabeth Holmes
Registration Year: 1890
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Scarborough
Inferred County: Yorkshire North Riding
Volume: 9d
Page: 478
Records on Page:
Name
Caroline Elizabeth Holmes
John Overing

Hi
Many many thanks for this information. It is a big break through and for other family members. It may now need to look in different avenues.

First name(s) CHADWIN JOHN
Last name OVERING
Gender Male
Birth day 14
Birth month 11
Birth year 1912
Age -
Death quarter 1
Death year 1988
District Harrow
Register number 388
County Middlesex
Volume 12
Page 1856


Overing Lettice M 1922 1925 1925 England & Wales Deaths 1837-2007 Maidstone, Kent, England



Source Gro Death Abroad Indices (1966 To 1994)
Archive reference DABR
Volume S (SHIPPING - EXCLUDES ROYAL NAVY)
War -
Record set British Armed Forces And Overseas Deaths And Burials
First name(s) Harold
Sex Male
Last name Overing
Death year 1975
Birth year 1917
Type Consular/Overseas
Place Shipping
Page 47
Age AGED 58
Birth date ? ? 1917


1939
Scott Household (8 People)
Farnborough Park Flat Rectory Road , Farnborough U.D., Hampshire, England

William J Overing 04 Jul 1914 Male Hotel 2nd Chef Single 296 6
Michael J Scott 12 Mar 1916 Male Hotel Scullery Man Single 296 1
Violet M Phillips 29 Aug 1918 Female Chambermaid Married 296 2
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
George H T Pearce 09 Jan 1920 Male Hotel Porter Single 296 4
Wilfrid R Beale 27 Jul 1906 Male Hotel Chef Married 296 5
Marie (F) Gadsden 26 Jan 1913 Female Waitress Single 296 7
Leo J Phillips 17 Jul 1912 Male Chauffeur Gardener Married 296 8


First name(s) DORIS P
Last name OVERING
Marriage quarter 3
Marriage year 1939
DORIS P OVERING married James H Mills

First name(s) DORIS PATIENCE
Last name MILLS
Gender Female
Birth day 4
Birth month 1
Birth year 1916
Age -
Death quarter 3
Death year 2001
District Ashford with Shepway
District number 5581B
Register number AS9B
Entry number 162
Date of registration mm/yy 0901
County Kent

Marriages Jun 1934 (>99%)

Overing Kate Pope Cranbrook 2a 2525
Pope John G Overing Cranbrook 2a 2525

1939

Pope Household (2 People)
Burnt House , Cranbrook R.D., Kent, England


Kate Pope 01 Oct 1882 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 221 2
John G Pope 30 Mar 1874 Male Farmer Married 221 1



Marriages Sep 1933 (>99%)
Overing Daisy M Pierce Tenterden 2a 3179
Pierce Edwin M Overing Tenterden 2a 3179

1939

Pierce Household (2 People)
Chilmington Cottage , West Ashford R.D., Kent, England


Daisy M Pierce 04 Sep 1909 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 167 2
Edwin M Pierce 27 Dec 1901 Male Farm Carter Heavy Worker Married 167 1

Daisy's DOB differs from that on the military sheet, but as John wasn't her father, he probably didn't know the correct date

First name(s) DAISY M
Last name PIERCE
Gender Female
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1910
Age 46
Death quarter 2
Death year 1956
District Ashford
County Kent
Volume 5B
Page 29

Daisy May's mother was Kate - who later had numerous children with John Overing, but doesn't appear to have married him

Births Dec 1912 (>99%)
Overing Chadwin Sandford Elham 2a 2094
Births Sep 1914 (>99%)
OVERING William J Sandford Elham 2a 2280
Births Mar 1916 (>99%)
Overing Doris P Sandford Hollingbourn 2a 1591
Births Jun 1917 (>99%)
Overing Harold Sandford Hollingbourn 2a 1381
Births Sep 1919 (>99%)
Overing Kathleen M Sandford Hollingbourn 2a 1413
Births Sep 1921 (>99%)
Overing Lettice M Sandford Hollingbourn 2a 1799



Name Daisy May Sandford Overing
Birth Date 12 Oct 1909
Birth Place Headcorn
Age 5
Document Year1914
Relationship to Soldier Child
Form Title Military History Sheet
Number of Images 5
Other RecordsDaisy May Sandford Overing - Child

Household Members
NameAge
Name
John Overing
Age
44
Name
Kate Overing
Name
Daisy May Sandford Overing
Age
5
Name
Chadwin Overing
Age
2
Name
William John Overing


Name: Daisy M Overing
Year: 1947
County or Borough: Twickenham
Ward or Division/Constituency: Twickenham Hampton

On the military record sheet, John claims to have married Kate in the Register Office, Folkestone, on 23rd July 1912, but there is nothing on freebmd, and Kate's name is recorded as 'Overing' on the military record.

Many thanks
There was a brother to William Sandford grandfather name Stephen Sandford 1823 .One of his children was Mary Ann Sandfod. William Sandford 1824 one of his children was Herbert Sandford. These two children later married.

Edith May is still at home in 1911 -

Births Sep 1893 (>99%)
Sandford Edith May Hollingbourn 2a 771

Unlikely but not impossible that any but youngest child would possibly be hers when she would have been 15/16

You may have to buy Birth certs to determine parentage.

As is Louisa

1911 Census For England & Wales
4 Invicta Road Folkestone, Folkestone, Kent, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Albert Sandford Head Widower Male 38 1873 Jobbing Gardeber Kent Ulcombe
Louisa Sandford Sister Single Female 22 1889 Housekeeper Kent Headcorn
Walter Sandford Brother Single Male 30 1881 Jobbing Gardener Kent Headcorn
Cyril Sandford Son - Male 6 1905 - Kent Folkestone
Doris Sandford Daughter - Female 3 1908 - Kent Folkestone

Kathleen still single in 1911 -

1911 Census For England & Wales
Herne Bay, Herne, Kent, England

First name(s) Kathleen
Last name Sandford
Relationship Servant
Marital status Single
Sex Female
Age 28
Birth year 1883
Birth place Headcorn Kent
Occupation Laundrymaid
House name -
House number -
Street -
Address Herne Bay
Parish Herne
County Kent
Country England
Archive reference RG14
Registration district Blean
Registration district number 59
Enumeration district 12
District number 12
Sub district Herne
Sub district number 2
Census reference RG14PN4363 RG78PN176 RD59 SD2 ED12 SN27
RG78 code number 176

SANDFORD, ROSA SANDFORD
GRO Reference: 1875 D Quarter in HOLLINGBOURN Volume 02A Page 632


Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Deaths Dec 1883 (>99%)
SANDFORD Rose 7 Hollingbourne 2a 411


Kent Burials

First name(s) Rosa
Last name Sandford
Birth year 1876
Residence Headcorn
Age at death 7
Burial year 1883
Burial date 23 Nov 1883
Place Headcorn
County Kent
Country England
Record source Headcorn burials 1560-1903
Record set Kent Burials
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Burials
Collections from England, Great Britain

Harriet registered as Mary Ann Harriet

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
SANDFORD, MARY ANN HARRIET SANDFORD
GRO Reference: 1874 M Quarter in HOLLINGBOURN Volume 02A Page 662

-------------------------------
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Mar 1899 (>99%)
Link Benjamin George Hollingbourn 2a 1033
Rennie Edwin William Hollingbourn 2a 1033 <<<<<
Sandford Mary Ann H Hollingbourn 2a 1033 <<<<<
Williams Elizabeth Hollingbourn 2a 1033

This marriage as I can see a Benjamin and Elizabeth Link in 1901 Headcorn, Kent

-------------------------------

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
RENNIE, MARY AGNES SANDFORD
GRO Reference: 1905 M Quarter in DARTFORD Volume 02A Page 59

-------------------------------

1911 Census For England & Wales
Basinghall 31 Elm Road New Malden, New Malden, Surrey, England


First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Edwin William Rennie Head Married Male 43 1868 House Decorator Dover Kent
Mary Rennie Wife Married Female 37 1874 - Headcon Kent
Mary Rennie Daughter - Female 6 1905 - Willing Kent
Violet Rennie Daughter - Female 3 1908 - Willing Kent

Eldest daughter Caroline married in 1898 (and alive 1911)

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Jun 1898 (>99%)
BRIDGE Richard William Hollingbourn 2a 1575 <<<<<<<<
Lewis Kate Agnes Hollingbourn 2a 1575
Sandford Caroline Hollingbourn 2a 1575 <<<<<<<<
Wickham Philip Hollingbourn 2a 1575

------------------------------
1911 Census For England & Wales
4 Invicta Road Folkestone, Folkestone, Kent, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Richard Bridge Head Married Male 44 1867 Bricklayer Labourer Kent Hollingbourne
Caroline Bridge Wife Married Female 41 1870 - Kent Headcorn
Dorothy Bridge Daughter - Female 10 1901 School Kent Folkestone
Beatrice Bridge Daughter - Female 6 1905 - Kent Folkestone
Helen Bridge Daughter - Female 2 1909 - Kent Folkestone
Stephen Bridge Father Married Male 69 1842 Brickyard Labourer Kent Wittersham

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Kingsworth Wood, Ulcombe, Hollingbourne, Kent, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Herbert Sandford Head - Male 23 1848 - Kent, England
Mary Sandford Wife - Female 21 1850 - Kent, England
Caroline Sandford Daughter - Female 1 1870 - Kent, England

-----------------------------------
1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Pinkhorn Green, Headcorn, Hollingbourne, Kent, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Herbert Sandford Head Married Male 33 1848 Agricultural Laborer Kent, England
Mary A Sandford Wife Married Female 31 1850 - Ulcombe, Kent, England
Caroline Sandford Daughter Single Female 11 1870 Scholar Ulcombe, Kent, England
Albert Sandford Son Single Male 9 1872 Scholar Ulcombe, Kent, England
Harriet Sandford Daughter Single Female 7 1874 Scholar Ulcombe, Kent, England
Rosa Sandford Daughter Single Female 5 1876 Scholar Kent, England
Thomas Sandford Son Single Male 4 1877 Scholar Kent, England
William Sandford Son Single Male 3 1878 Scholar Headcorn, Kent, England
Walter J Sandford Son Single Male 0 1881 Infant Headcorn, Kent, England

-----------------------------------
1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Pinkhorn Green, Headcorn, Hollingbourne, Kent, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Herbert Sandford Head Married Male 43 1848 Agricultural Labourer Kent, England
Mary Ann Sandford Wife Married Female 41 1850 - Kent, England
Thomas Sandford Son Single Male 14 1877 Agricultural Labourer Kent, England
Walter Sandford Son - Male 10 1881 Scholar Kent, England
Kate Sandford Daughter - Female 8 1883 Scholar Kent, England
Louisa Sandford Daughter - Female 2 1889 - Kent, England
Bertie Sandford Son - Male 1 1890 - Kent, England
James Sandford Lodger Single Male 26 1865 Agricultural Labourer Kent, England

------------------------
1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Pinkham Green, Headcorn, Hollingbourne, Kent, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Herbert Sandford Head Married Male 52 1849 Agricultural Labourer Kent, England
Mary Ann Sandford Wife Married Female 50 1851 - Kent, England
Thomas Sandford Son Single Male 25 1876 Bricklayers Labourer Kent, England
Kathleen Sandford Daughter Single Female 18 1883 - Headcorn, Kent, England
Louisa Sandford Daughter Single Female 12 1889 - Headcorn, Kent, England
Bertie Sandford Son Single Male 10 1891 - Headcorn, Kent, England
Edith May Sandford Daughter Single Female 7 1894 - Headcorn, Kent, England
William Sandford Father-In-Law Widower Male 79 1822 Farm Labourer Kent, England
James Sandford Brother Single Male 36 1865 Main Road Foremans Kent, England


So all 12 children can be seen on census - none born and died between one census and the next, but you need to track each.

Record Transcription:
1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Pinkhorn Green, Headcorn, Hollingbourne, Kent, England
otential record matches for the same person in other record sets

Herbert Sandford


Herbert Sandford's Household Members
Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Herbert Sandford Head Married Male 33 1848 Agricultural Laborer Kent, England
Mary A Sandford Wife Married Female 31 1850 - Ulcombe, Kent, England
Caroline Sandford Daughter Single Female 11 1870 Scholar Ulcombe, Kent, England
Albert Sandford Son Single Male 9 1872 Scholar Ulcombe, Kent, England
Harriet Sandford Daughter Single Female 7 1874 Scholar Ulcombe, Kent, England
Rosa Sandford Daughter Single Female 5 1876 Scholar Kent, England
Thomas Sandford Son Single Male 4 1877 Scholar Kent, England
William Sandford Son Single Male 3 1878 Scholar Headcorn, Kent, England
Walter J Sandford Son Single Male 0 1881 Infant Headcorn, Kent, England

Record Transcription:
1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Pinkham Green, Headcorn, Hollingbourne, Kent, England


Herbert Sandford


Herbert Sandford

Record: Census Record

Location: Kent, England


Herbert Sandford's Household Members
Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Herbert Sandford Head Married Male 52 1849 Agricultural Labourer Kent, England
Mary Ann Sandford Wife Married Female 50 1851 - Kent, England
Thomas Sandford Son Single Male 25 1876 Bricklayers Labourer Kent, England
Kathleen Sandford Daughter Single Female 18 1883 - Headcorn, Kent, England
Louisa Sandford Daughter Single Female 12 1889 - Headcorn, Kent, England
Bertie Sandford Son Single Male 10 1891 - Headcorn, Kent, England
Edith May Sandford Daughter Single Female 7 1894 - Headcorn, Kent, England
William Sandford Father-In-Law Widower Male 79 1822 Farm Labourer Kent, England
James Sandford Brother Single Male 36 1865 Main Road Foremans Kent, England

The 1911 census posted by safc - looking at the original

Herbert and Mary Ann say married for 42 years and that they have had 12 children born alive, but 3 have since died.

Unless more than one person is mother to those 5 children it would look to be an unmarried daughter alive at 1911 census time (certainly for the post census birth).