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Hi, I'm the 'Sue' who Diane refers to in her questions. Walter Edmund Snoad lived with my Gt.Gt. Grandmother, 'Annie' in Leicester and I believe fathered two of her four illegitimate children. They were living at no. 27 Devonshire Street, Leicester in 1891. I believe that Ethel and Walter shown in that census were Walter's children. No father's name is given on Ethel's birth certificate and on Walter's it says, Father: Walter Mathews formerly a groom. Annie altered the truth as Walter Snoad had died by the time of his son's birth. Walter was given the middle name of 'Edmund' as does Walter Snoad.

Births Mar 1894
Mathews Walter Edmund Leicester 7a 276

Births Dec 1890
Mathews Ethel Minnie Leicester 7a 207

Annie always gave her name as 'Annie Maria Mathews formerly Kemp'. When she married in 1900 she gave her father's name as Thomas Kemp - carpenter (deceased). I've carried out extensive research and I'm still no nearer in discovering her parentage after nearly ten years! In 1891, all three children (including my Gt.Grandfather, William Thomas (born c1883) are called 'Snoad'. In 1901, Ethel and Walter's surname is given as 'Fowkes' as Annie had recently married Joseph Fowkes whilst my Gt.Grandfather was called William Matthews. Strangely, she calls my Gt.Grandfather a 'visitor' rather than her son. He had just got married and was living there with his wife and baby son. It did cross my mind that maybe my Gt.Grandfather was indeed Albert Snoad born 1880 but in that case where was he in 1881 and why was his name changed? I also can't see any way of proving this theory.
In 1911 Annie gave Ethel and Walter their real names of 'Mathews'. In 1891, she says she was born in Middlesex (as did Walter), in 1901 she gives Leicester as her birthplace and in 1911 , 'Manchester' has been written but if you look closely you can see that 'Leicester' has been written first and then rubbed out - not very successfully! In both the earlier census she says that she was born c1863 but in 1911 she gives her birth year as 1857!!

As to the marriage in Faversham, Kent in 18901, I suspect it was between these two people:

Births Dec 1863
SNOAD Walter Faversham 2a 628

Births Mar 1863
HOPKINS Jane Fanny Faversham 2a 652

Walter Snoad (above) was a carter and Jane was in domestic service. She was staying with her brother in 1901, aged 38 and still single.

I also suspect that the groom of the marriage which took place in September Qtr.in Faversham was one of these two men:

Births Mar 1885
Snoad Albert Faversham 2a 914
Births Dec 1891
Snoad Albert Thomas Faversham 2a 845

In 1881, Walter Edmund Snoad (b.1852) and Elizabeth (nee Ravenhill) were in lodgings in Shropshire, calling themselves Walter and Mary Snook. No sign of the baby boy, Albert born the previous year. Walter was still a groom but later became a coach driver. That's why their daughter Grace was baptised in Leominster, Herefordshire but registered in Sherborne, Dorset. I think Elizabeth travelled around with Walter and gave birth to Grace in Dorset, then had her baptised in her hometown of Leominster. Grace is with her maternal grandmother in 1891 but still no sign of her brother, Albert. Elizabeth aka 'Bay' or 'May' can't be found in either the 1891 or 1901 census although we now know that she married twice, the first time in 1892, bigamously!
Annie's birth, my Gt.Grandfather's birth and the mysterious disappearance of Albert Walter C.A.R. Snoad still remain unsolved puzzles. :-( :-(

Hello Diane
some years ago there was a funeral directors in Streatham South West London Sunnyhill road i think by the name of Albert Snoad.
Don't know if its still there as i moved to Scotland some 4 years ago maybe of some help
Regards Charles

Probably nothing to do with this but I grew up in Faversham and lived opposite a family called Snoad.

This could be a Walter + Fanny marriage:




Marriages Dec 1890
Appleton Jesse Faversham 2a 1588
Hopkins Fanny Faversham 2a 1588
Snoad Walter Faversham 2a 1588
Tumber Annie Elizabeth Faversham 2a 1588


That would make son William a child from before that marriage. It would presumably also make the marriage bigamous, if it's the same Walter Snoad -- unless Bay May Elizabeth had died before then.



The Walter Snoad referred to above was born in Faversham in 1864 and is working as a carter in 1881.

Walter Snoad born in Chelsea and 'Annie' didn't marry.

Also:



Is this your Albert by any chance?

Marriages Sep 1911
Newman Alice F Faversham 2a 2173
Packman Kate S Faversham 2a 2173
Snoad Albert Faversham 2a 2173
Uden Ernest G Faversham 2a 2173



I believe the Albert Snoad referred to above was the son of Alfred and Eliza Snoad who was living in Davington (Faversham Reg.Dist) in 1901.

That's not your Albert Walter on the 1891 Kathryn B found, mistranscribed as Snow? (Walter jnr, he's the right age.)

Ozi.

Hi Ozibird

Thanks for that info regarding the adoptions. I'm not sure about the wedding record. I would like to think it is Albert and he didn't die as a baby or was adopted out. Or, as I dramatically wondered, if his mother had murdered him!

I wonder why he doesn't show up in any census records? I have tried the combinations of his many names and spellings of surnames but no luck.

I will pass all this on to Sue, who is also interested in this family, and see what she thinks.

Thanks again.

Cheers

Diane

Is this your Albert by any chance?

Marriages Sep 1911
Newman Alice F Faversham 2a 2173
Packman Kate S Faversham 2a 2173
Snoad Albert Faversham 2a 2173
Uden Ernest G Faversham 2a 2173

Congratulations on the birth cert.

Legal adoptions weren't registered until 1927 so you may not have much luck there.

You have 42 days to register a birth in the UK at the moment. I don't see it being much different in 1880.

Ozi.

Hello to Everyone who has helped me so far.

The saga continues and the plot thickens:

I now have the birth certificate for Albert Walter Cecil Alfred Ravenhill Snoad (poor kid) born on 8 September 1880.

Parents are Walter Edmund Albert Snoad and Bay May Ethel Jessial (or Jerrial) Snoad formerly Ravenhill.

Alfred's birth was registered on 25 September 1880 by his mother. 17 days after he was born.

I cannot find a death record for Albert so I thought he may have been adopted soon after his birth.

Does anyone know where or if 19th century adoption records can be found. Also how long after a birth does the child need to be registered. 17 days seems excessive.

By the 1881 census the couple were living in Shropshire but there is no trace of their 6 month old baby.

Any help appreciated.

It's late down under and I will check back in the morning, so please don't be cross if I do not answer any questions straight away.

Cheers

Diane

Isn't it? I meant to do the Coles-Notes version, as much for myself as anything. The theory goes:


Elizabeth Jane Ravenhill, as Bay May E J Ravenhill
married
Walter Edmond A Snoad
in 1879 in St Geo Hanover Sq


Walter Snoad
married?
Fanny Hopkins?
in 1890 in Faversham

That marriage could be a red herring (but who would that Walter Snoad be?) -- because an Ancestry user has annotated the 1891 census record for Walter Snoad and Fanny Unknown to indicate that their children became Matthews (born "illegitimate" -- but as what name?) But ... the children in question were born well before that Snoad-Hopkins marriage; was Fanny a Mathews by birth and a Hopkins by marriage? Vice versa? Not so's I can find ...


Meanwhile:

Elizabeth J Ravenhill, as May Snoad
married
Henry Samuel Sherwood
in 1892 in Devon

Mr. Sherwood died in 1895.

Elizabeth J Ravenhill, as May Snoad Sherwood
married
John Henry Morrish (or John Bowen Richards)
in 1901 in Cardiff


The tale so far, as I understand it, and counting only the spousal/parental figures. ;)

This is such an interesting tale. Please keep us up-to-date.

Ozi.

Wow, thanks so much Kathryn!

I will get Sue (with the Gt Gt Gran in question) to read through this thread. She did mention her Gt x 2 Gran used the names Annie and Fanny and surnames Matthews and Kemp.

The 9 year William Snoad/Matthews is Sue's Gt Grandfather. So, no, that William is not Albert.

The 1881 census has been mis transcribed and the terrible two are listed as Walter and Mary Snook.

You have found the correct birth record for Elizabeth J Ravenhill and I am interested in the possibility of another marriage for her.

I have a photo of the three Ravenhill sisters taken around 1935 which my Aunt named one of them Aunty May so I think she was still alive then.

Just at this moment I have to confess to a few too may Christmas Eve champagnes so I will have a closer look when I can think straight.

Thank you once again for your help and Merry Christmas!

Cheers
Diane

For that May Snoad marriage, it looks like the Mark Hamilton in the list married Harriet, and she was widowed by 1901. That leaves Sherwood, and I'm having no luck finding him in 1901.

Looks like this must be his birth:

Name: Henry Samuel Sherwood
Year of Registration: 1845
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Shoreditch
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 2
Page: 411

He died in 1895:

Name: Henry Samuel Sherwood
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Year of Registration: 1895
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 50
District: Leeds (1837-1929)
County: Yorkshire - West Riding
Volume: 9b
Page: 378


and his wife remarried:


Name: May Snoad Sherwood
Year of Registration: 1901
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Cardiff (1837-1974)
County: Glamorgan, Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 613

to John Henry Morrish or John Bowen Richards.


This tale is covering a lot of ground, but it seems to follow logically. Do any of the names sound remotely familiar??


Here is the birth of a John Bowen Richards who might be a tad young for our May:

Name: John Bowen Richards
Year of Registration: 1868
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Ludlow
County: Herefordshire, Shropshire
Volume: 6a
Page: 551

-- on edit -- aargh, that one died at birth. Do you suppose people engaged in identity theft back then??

No, here are two younger ones, one of which probably married Eyre:

John Bowen Richards 1883 Apr-May-Jun Liverpool (1837-1934) Lancashire
John Bowen Richards 1886 Jul-Aug-Sep West Derby Lancashire


John Henry Morrish is too common a name to guess at.

Eleanor Louisa Eyre might be a better match for Richards:

Name: Eleanor Louisa Eyre
Year of Registration: 1874
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Cardiff (1837-1974)
County: Glamorgan, Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 301


No death for that May springs to view.

Re the 1891 Snoad children, the note at Ancestry seems to suggest they were born Mathews:


Surname: Mathews
Correction Type: Transcription Error
Explanation: Ethel was illegitimate. I have a copy of her birth certificate.


Don't see matching births in Leicestershire though.

If Walter Snoad married Fanny Hopkins in 1890, these could be the births of the two children in the 1891 household:


Name: Ethel Hopkins
Year of Registration: 1884
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Ashby de la Zouch
County: Derbyshire, Leicestershire
Volume: 7a
Page: 93

Name: William Hopkins
Year of Registration: 1880
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Ashby de la Zouch
County: Derbyshire, Leicestershire
Volume: 7a
Page: 92


This would suggest that Bay May Elizabeth J Ravenhill Snoad died shortly before 1890, maybe.

Do we know her date of birth? Was this her?

Name: Elizabeth Jane Ravenhill
Year of Registration: 1857
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Leominster
County: Herefordshire, Hereford and Worcester
Volume: 6a
Page: 471


An interesting marriage:


Name: May Snoad
Year of Registration: 1892
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: St Thomas
County: Devon
Volume: 5b
Page: 76

to Henry Samuel Sherwood or Mark Hamilton.


There was no May Snoad born at any reasonable time to be that bride, in the birth index or the censuses. (A May Snoad born later in Faversham married later in Faversham.) There is also no Snoad marriage to a May anytime, that would have meant that the May Snoad in this marriage was a widowed Snoad by marriage.

What names were Walter and Elizabeth living under in Shropshire in 1881? Danged if I can find them.

This could be a Walter + Fanny marriage:


Marriages Dec 1890
Appleton Jesse Faversham 2a 1588
Hopkins Fanny Faversham 2a 1588
Snoad Walter Faversham 2a 1588
Tumber Annie Elizabeth Faversham 2a 1588


That would make son William a child from before that marriage. It would presumably also make the marriage bigamous, if it's the same Walter Snoad -- unless Bay May Elizabeth had died before then.

No other Walter Snoad birth was registered anytime around 1852.

Is this Walter Sr in 1891?


Name: Walter Snow
[Walter Snoad]
[Walter Mathews]
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Fanny
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: St Margaret
Ecclesiastical parish: St Margaret
County/Island: Leicestershire
Country: England

Registration district: Leicester
Sub-registration district: East Leicester
ED, institution, or vessel: 86

Ethel Snow 6/12
Fanny Snow 29
Walter Snow 39
William Snow 9


The corrections have been made by an Ancestry subscriber who says:


"I have his death certificate giving place of residence as this address. Also birth certificates of his illegitimate children.
Walter was illegitimate. I have a copy of his birth certificate."


Kinda sounds like a similar tale. ;)

Might Fanny be the gran in question?


There is also a note to the son, William:

Name: William Snow
[William Mathews]
[William Snoad]
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Walter
Mother's Name: Fanny
Where born: Leicestershire, England


"William was my Great Grandfather. His surname was changed to Matthews by 1901. Birth registration cannot be found, suspected to be illegitimate."


Is there any chance that he could be Albert??

Hello Everyone

Thank you for all your replies, help and information. I live in New Zealand so please excuse the 12 hour plus time period it may take me to post a reply.

Elizabeth Snoad nee Ravenhill is my Gt Gt Aunt and by all accounts the wild child of the family.

After the record of his birth, I can find no trace of baby Albert. In 1881 Elizabeth and Walter are living in Shropshire but Albert is not with them. I cannot find either Elizabeth or Walter after the 1881 census.

When their second child Grace died of TB another of Elizabeth's brothers in law was the informant on her death certificate. I think by this time Grace's father was well out of her life as you will see later in the story. But where was her mother?

Walter died in Middlesex in 1893. I do not know when Elizabeth died but my elderly Aunt has a vague recollection of an "Aunty May". So Elizabeth may have been alive in the early 1930's.

The reason for my interest in this family is that I am working with another member whose Gt Gt Gran had a relationship with Walter after he left Elizabeth, or maybe did not leave her! She does not know her Gran's name as she used several surnames. We were hoping that if we could find out what became of Albert it would give us a lead.

Thank you all once again for your help and a very Merry Christmas to you all.

Cheers

Diane

Probably.

1861 England Census
Name: Walter Snoad
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Frances J
Mother's Name: Harriott
Gender: Male
Where born: Chelsea, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Bermondsey
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Street address: 50 Baalzephon St

Occupation: scholar

Registration district: Bermondsey
Sub-registration district: Leather Market
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 232
Household Members: Name Age
Frances J Snoad 38 - journeyman baker; Canterbury
Harriott Snoad 39 - Dairy keeper; London
William Snoad 15
Francis Snoad 12
Walter Snoad 8
Minnie Snoad 5
Alfred Snoad 1
Caroline Hiscock 35 - visitor
George Brown 21 - boarder
George East 26 - boarder