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Hi Kathryn
You were up late
Thanks for all your help

So to recap your Hypothesis
You have found a James Greenwood of the right age on the 1841 Census in Lancashire
You have found a Richard & Betty Greenwood and family in the same town.
Can you give me the Street Names and place name?
I could then look at an old map to see how close they were.
Young James could have been staying at his Nan's the night of the Census and was recorded there or he could have been staying there because he worked locally.
We must link James and Richard somehow. Was Betty's maiden name Whitehead.
Their are other GR members with Richard and Betty on their tree. I will contact them they may have the answer. None appear to have young James. Only Super sleuth Kathryn has made that connection.

Once we have connected Richard and James, I still have to connect James to my James in Bilston on the 1861 Census.
Maybe we can find Richard and James on the 1851 in Lancashire. I have looked before but had no joy. Maybe we have more information now with a possible mother and siblings.

Hi Again
I contacted Neil who has Richard, Betty and kids in his tree. This was his reply

"Hi Simon, I don't think it is the same Richard although there is some confusion over the marriage details of my Richard and the parentage of the children. my Richard was in his late thirties when he partnered Betty Ornroyd. the first of their children was Alice born 1838. He did not marry Betty for some reason. it could have been that he had wife and children prior to 1838!!! My Richards parents were Thomas and Ann. Good hunting if there is a connection let me know"

He does not connect James Greenwood to this family, not to say he wasn't. Richard is ten years older than Betty so he could have be married before. Maybe to Susannah Whitehead's daughter who may have died by 1841 and James did live with his Grandmother.

Is this the answer? How can we be sure?

Simon

A little more information for you super sleuths with access to ancestry.

Ah, but you have access to familysearch!

I did indeed find what could have been an earlier marriage there for Richard -- just seemed like enough hypothesizing for one night. ;)

Hunt for Richard Greenwood marriages, say 1830 +/-10, and you can browse them and see what you think

I do think that is a quite reasonable hypothesis. The marriage wasn't to a Whitehead, but there could still be a connection -- or none, he was just boarding.

I'll get back to the census later today and check out the place data. I know they weren't in the same district.

could this be him in 1851 working in a cotton mill i think
Name: James Green
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1832
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Great Bolton, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Halliwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Household Members: Name Age
James Green 19
Allison Seward 18
James Seward 48
John Seward 25
Margret Seward 14
Mary Seward 46
Mary Seward 7
Robert Seward 10
Elizabeth Sewart 28
Thomas Walsh 80

Janice
That could be him
Right year of birth and geographical area.
Can you find James Green in the 1841 or 1861. If you can't I think James Green might be my ancestor.

Thanks

Simon means "Can you find James Green in the 1841 or *1861*", I think. ;)

Hang on -- that James Green isn't working in a cotton mill. It's the person on the list after him who was. He was a collier. That's mining, isn't it?

I've been wondering whether James Greenwood was a bright young lad who got on-the-job training to become a boiler fitter thingy, so we shouldn't be too stuck on what his occupation was in 1851. But I don't see too good a reason to consider that 1851 James Green at this point.

OK Kathryn yes I did mean 1841 and 1861. I was trying to include or discount James Green.

In 1861 my James Greenwood was married to Henrietta living in Bilston, near Wolverhampton.
In 1871 he was a Journeyman Boilermaker not a craftsman but a qualified boliermaker.

On the 1861 census does it detail James Greenwood's occupation?
I feel we are getting closer to the answer
Thanks for the help so far

1861 boiler maker

Okay, this once more. Waiting for the 1861 image to load ...

Boiler maker.

You going to pursue that first/second Richard Greenwood marriage business in the IGI?


Richard Greenwood's wife, in Prestwich cum Oldham, Bury district, in 1841, is Betty. Daughter Alice was 3 yrs old, son Thomas was 1:

You can do this yourself at FreeBMD!! --

Name: Alice Greenwood
Year of Registration: 1837
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Bury
County: Greater Manchester, Lancashire
Volume: 21
Page: 251

There are two Thomas-s registered in Bury in 1839.

Those would give you the parents of those children -- i.e. the mother's full name -- information that would likely be useful at some point.

No Richard Greenwood marriages in Bury before 1841.


This looks much like that 1841 Richard (wife was Betty), in 1851:


Name: Richard Greenwood - Labourer
Age: 46
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1805
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Betsey -- actually, it says Bettey
Gender: Male
Where born: Pilkington, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Pilkington
Ecclesiastical parish: Ringley
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Bury
Sub-registration district: Radcliffe
ED, institution, or vessel: 1k
Household schedule number: 11

Alice Greenwood 13
Betsey Greenwood 43
Elisabeth Greenwood 5
Ellin Greenwood 9
Richard Greenwood 46
William Greenwood 7


The whole lot of them are shown as born in Pilkington. Probably one of those birthplaces of convenience again, since that's where they're living.


edit 25 March 2011 -- just sticking this here to keep info together

http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html

baptisms of children in this household at Ringley, Lancashire, e.g.:

Name: Alice Greenwood
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 03 Dec 1837
Baptism/Christening Place: Ringley, Lancashire, England
Father's Name: Richard Greenwood
Mother's Name: Betty Greenwood
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I04735-8 **
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1545744
Reference Number: item 1
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

** these would be submitted records, but I think they look accurate; they start in 1837 (possibly batch baptisms)

Cheers Janice
Can you find James Green in 1841 and 1861 census. It would be useful to include or discount him.

I must find a link between James in Bilston on the 1861 census and young James on the 1841 census

Simon -- there is simply no reason to think that James Green is your James Greenwood. Janice made a slip of the eye when she read him as being a cotton mill worker. He wasn't, he was a collier.

If you're going to trace him back and forth, you may as well trace every James Greenwood, Greenway, Greehnalgh, Grunwald, whatever, all over Lancashire and Staffordshire.

And if you really want to do that ... well, you'd better get yourself an Ancestry subscription! Have you tried the 14 day free trial? If so, as I understand it, it's easy to do it a second time -- just get yerself a different Gmail address.

Kathryn

I have looked for a first marriage but there are quite a few Richard Greenwood's in Lancashire / Yorkshire born abt 1800. I can't find a Whitehead married to a Greenwood before James was born and Richard remarried to Betty. Not sure how to choose which lady would be the James mother.

So James still not with Richard on the 1851 aged 19.
Where was he?

Richard in 1861, just for the record:


Name: Richard Greenwood
Age: 56
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1805
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Prestwich, Ireland

Civil Parish: Pilkington
Ecclesiastical parish: Ringley
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Bury
Sub-registration district: Pilkington
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household schedule number: 197

Alice Greenwood 23 - paper matter
Elizabeth Greenwood 15 - cotton factory worker
Ellen Greenwood 19 - cotton factory worker
Ellen Greenwood 39 - sister, house servant
Richard Greenwood 56 - agricultural labourer
William Greenwood 17 - agricultural labourer


It most definitely does not say "Ireland" anywhere on that record. Oh, lord. A long line of "do"s -- ditto to the "Lancashire" at the top of the page, is interrupted halfway down by someone born in Ireland, which has then been read in for subsequent people. It actually means Lancashire, Prestwich.

The family members working in a cotton factory are consistent with the James we found in 1841, but then, not exactly unusual.

The only Richard-Betty marriage I see, and Colne is a bit out of the way -- unless it's maybe where she was from:


RICHARD GREENWOOD
Spouse: BETTY ORNROYD
Marriage: 10 MAY 1832 Colne, Lancashire, England
Batch No.: M005606


I wouldn't rule out that 1834 Richard Greenwood - Elizabeth Whoodhead marriage, though. There are several W(h)oodhead marriages and a lot of Whitehead marriages in that same batch.


The IGI batch for Oldham covers a lot of ground, and includes this:


JAMES GREENWOOD
Birth: 02 JAN 1834 Halifax, Yorkshire, England
Father: RICHARD GREENWOOD
Mother: SARAH
Batch No.: C093421


Odd that it's a birth and not a baptism.

Kathryn, Janice

Thank-you for helping me

I will have a good read of the information and see where it fits in with my tree.

One question how do you search IGI by area?

Simon

Ah, the excellent website of Hugh Wallis:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers.htm#Menu

*If* the parish is in the IGI, he'll give you the batch numbers to search in.

That's why I included batch numbers in those items above.

If you include a batch number in the search criteria for the IGI, you only have to specify "British Isles" for the region -- plus anything else you like.

You can look in a particular batch for all baptisms where the father is Richard and/or Greenwood (if it's a baptism batch). All marriages where the bride is Betty (if it's a marriage batch). All baptisms where the given name was James. And so on.

Have fun!

Could be this be my James
No Richard though

Name: James Greenwood
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Gender: Male

Civil Parish: Stockport
Hundred: Macclesfield
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation: View Image

Registration district: Ashton under Lyne
Sub-registration district: Dukinfield
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Hanieal Greenwood 50
Hannah Greenwood 15
James Greenwood 10
John Greenwood 15
Mally Greenwood 20
Richard Greenwood 20
Sarah Greenwood 10

1841 England Census
about James Greenwood
Name: James Greenwood
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Gender: Male
Where born: Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Bolton Le Moors
Hundred: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation: View Image

Registration district: Bolton
Sub-registration district: Great Bolton West
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Benjamin Greenwood 15
David Greenwood 20
James Greenwood 10
Mary Greenwood 15
Sarah Greenwood 40

Well now that first one, in Stockport, is interesting -- the mother is a widow and the eldest son in the household is Richard, suggesting a father Richard. (There could have been older children, possibly including an older son named for the father's father or such.)

The IGI has a couple of Richard Greenwood + Hannah marriages before 1821, but in Yorkshire; none in Lancashire or Cheshire. Why are you looking in Cheshire now?

Have you ever figured out who the person is who corrected James's name in 1871, or contacted her? (If you want me to send that person your email address requesting contact, PM it to me. Or are you back at Ancestry now yourself?) --

1871 England Census
Name: James Grenwood
[James Greenwood]
-- correction made by Ancestry user JuneTaylor23
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1832
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Henrietta
Gender: Male
Where born: Bilston, Staffordshire, England



The eldest child in the 1841 household in Bolton Le Moors is David, and the mother is Sarah. I'd say this is quite likely the parents' marriage:


DAVID GREENWOOD
Spouse: SARAH STATON
Marriage: 01 JAN 1819 Saint Peter, Bolton Le Moors, Lancashire, England
Batch: M007153



Me, I'm sticking with my original theory.


The mother Susannah and son Ralph in the 1841 Whitehead household where my pick for young James was living are here in 1851:


Name: Susannah Whitehead
Age: 75
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1776
Relation: Head
Where born: Ripponden, Yorkshire, England

Name: Ralph Whitehead
Age: 46
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1805
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Susannah
Where born: Oldham, Lancashire, England

Name: Joseph Whitehead
Age: 46
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1805
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Susannah
Where born: Oldham, Lancashire, England

Name: Mary Whitehead
Age: 49
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1802
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Susannah
Where born: Oldham, Lancashire, England

Name: Hannah Thomas Broadbent
(it looks like Thomas is stricken and Hannah written above)
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1814
Relation: Daughter - married
Mother's Name: Susannah
Where born: Oldham, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Oldham
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: St James
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Oldham
Sub-registration district: Oldham
ED, institution, or vessel: 1t
Household schedule number: 99

Hannah Thomas Broadbent 37 - daughter of Susannah
Sarah Ann Broadbent 4 - daughter of Hannah
Joseph Whitehead 46
Mary Whitehead 49
Ralph Whitehead 46
Susannah Whitehead 75


But I'm danged if I can find a single event relating to a single one of them in the IGI, except for this possible marriage:

HANNAH WHITEHEAD
Spouse: JOHN BROADBENT
Marriage: 10 FEB 1836 Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire, England
Batch No.: M071935


Nothing to make a Greenwood-Whitehead connection.

But I would bet a few loonies that the young James Greenwood in the household was indeed the grandchild of Susannah Whitehead, one way or another. That Richard Greenwood who had partnered up with Betty Ornroyd in the later 1830s could very well have been already married to, or having children with, someone else, e.g. that James's and/or your James's mother.

Or James could have been born to a Greenwood mother, and simply invented Richard Greenwood when he married -- or used his grandfather's name, a very not-uncommon practice.


cont'd

And lookie here.

I was just idly looking for women in the vicinity named Greenwood and of an age to be that young James's mother, and found this one:


Name: Betty Greenwood
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Where born: Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Prestwich Cum Oldham
Hundred: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Ashton and Oldham
Sub-registration district: Crompton

Betty Greenwood 30
Hannah Greenwood 2
William Greenwood 5


The geographic details match up with that Richard Greenwood in Prestwich cum Oldham in 1841. So I thought I'd take a look at the pages they are on, and see how close neighbours they were.

And what did I find? Ancestry has mistakenly hived off part of that Betty Greenwood's household (misinterpreting hesitation marks at the beginning of the "Hannah" as a household separator).

The rest of the household is, in this order:


Mary Whitehead 35
James Whitehead 40
John Whitehead 40


-- all cotton weavers. Betty Greenwood is washerwoman.


YES YES YES YES YES. The Greenwood - Whitehead connection.

I say:

This Betty Greenwood is the abandoned wife of Richard Greenwood, sharing quarters with her Whitehead siblings, children of Suzannah Whitehead with whom Betty Greenwood's son James is living.