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Margaret just a little something extra on the Carrs for you. In my private collection of old photo,s I have, there are some old pics of the shops they owned in Oxfordshire and rented out. It has also been mentioned to me that Ellen was cast out of her family but for what reason I dont know.
Regards Marion

Thanks Margaret for Joining in and trying to help.
Most welcome. I found your Wheelwright/Coach Maker information very interesting as the Dells were Coach Makers so maybe this is how these two families the Carr,s and the Dells came to know each other? Richard Carr married a Sarah Towers in Oxfodshire. Richard,s Father was John Carr born about 1768 and his Mother was Mary ? His siblings were Mary Ann 1781,Elizabeth 1782,and Charles 1887. I take your point about marriage Certs and people trying to make themselves seem more important. People still do this of today trying to be something their not or stretching the facts a little. Margaret all I can tell you is Richard Carr Ellens Father owned a great deal of land. One small plot is mentioned on Cyndy,s List. Ellens brother John Richard Towers Carr owned more land than his Father Richard. Anyway Margaret you will be hearing from me as I have a Baptism I need your help with. Thankyou for your kind offer there. The Census for 1861 was not my Ellen working as a Laundress as this Ellen was born in London .


Regards Marion

Hello Oz Bird,
I was just about to add the details for the second marriage for Ellen but you have found them so no need. You also found Ellen,s family of Carr. There is another Ellen Carr born in Oxfordshire but she was the Niece of my Ellen. This Ellen was the daughter of my Ellens brother John Richard Towers Carr 3 x Mayor of Oxfordshire. I dont know what to think OZ Bird really I dont. Thomas Dell did state on one of he Census he was a Widower but why when he wasn,t? Its a mystery alright. Perhaps I could turn all this into a good Paper Back Novel? The Mystery Of Ellen Dell... On the Marriage Cert for 1865 it states Ellen Carr Spinster so it sounds like all ties to the surname of Dell were dead in a way or maybe its just the details as Ellen asked for them to be recorded and nobody was any the wiser. Maybe also the Carrs faked Ellen,s death? Heres why I say this oz Bird... Ellen,s Brother President Ferris Carr was a Policeman and very high up. Perhaps his surname gave him a bit of an advantage there in the force regarding his rank? I wont continue with my thoughts but maybe in your own mind you can see the picture I am trying to paint here? I thankyou you OZ Bird for your help and also Sharmila. I reall y have to find Ellen for 1861 as she might have my Great Grandmother with her? My late Mother always spoke of her Grandmother as being a Lady.... Other family members speak of my G Grandmother as being...A Lady In Her Own Right. Noone has found my G Grandmothers Birth . My other family member and myself have paid for searches left right and centre thats why I have to find Ellen for 1861. Bye OZ Bird and Sharmilla.

I've come to a dead end.

But you should never give up.

Ozi.

Just found 1871. She's getting younger by the minute!!!!

Name: Ellen McClelland
Age: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1831
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Robert I
Gender: Female
Where born: Oxfordshire, England

Never mind about 2nd marriage. I've found it.

Marriages Mar 1865
...>>>Carr Ellen Greenwich 1d 780
...>>>McClelland Robert Greenwich 1d 780
Reeler Ell__ Ann Greenwich 1d 780
Tanner George Greenwich 1d 780


Is this all the Carr siblings?

Parents Richard & Sarah.
1. JOHN RICHARD TOWERS CARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 25 DEC 1811 Saint Giles, Oxford, Oxford, England

2. ALFRED CARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 17 MAR 1815 Saint Giles, Oxford, Oxford, England

3. CHARLES CARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: About 17 MAR 1815 Saint Giles, Oxford, Oxford, England

4. PRESIDENT FERRIS CARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 13 AUG 1817 Saint Giles, Oxford, Oxford, England

5. CORNELIUS VINCENT CARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 12 JUL 1818 Saint Giles, Oxford, Oxford, England

6. CAROLINE CHARLOTTE CARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 19 MAY 1820 Saint Giles, Oxford, Oxford, England

7. MARIA ISABELLA CARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 13 SEP 1822 Saint Giles, Oxford, Oxford, England

8. ELLIN SELINA CARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 09 APR 1824 Saint Giles, Oxford, Oxford, England

9. PAUL THEOPHILUS CARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 25 JUL 1827 Saint Giles, Oxford, Oxford, England

Here are the Dells for 1841. You will see both James and Thomas mentioned. OZ Bird on the Census for Richard Jams Dell Carr it does state Adopted son. On his Birth Cert it shows Isabella as Mother but no Fathers name. I think the James Dell part of his name makes it clear who his Father was. The area down for Richards Birth is Eton. (Headington)






Registration district: Reading
Sub-registration district: St Mary

Household Members: Name Age
Elizabeth Dell 20
Hannah Dell 50
James Dell 25
Martha Dell 15
Mary A Dell 25
Thomas Dell 20

The Dells OZ Bird were Coach Makers and employed 8 men. I must find Ellen for 1861 if possible. These Census could hold the key to another mystery never solved.

Sharmila I am waiting to hear back from another relation as I have passed all your information through.

Many Thanks

Goodness me.

I've been thinking that if indeed Ellen did run away would she use her real name?

She used Carr to remarry, didn't she?

Ozi.

Hi Oz Bird and welcome aboard. Now you have opened a can of worms. Right here goes..Richard James Dell Carr was the son of Ellen,s sister Isabella born out of wedlock I believe. His father was James Dell the borther of Thomas. Later Isabella did marry Arthur Bradby. You can see I,m on the right track here with Ellen and Thomas for a marriage. Richard James Dell Carr or Bradby as he was known later in life died as a result of a horse bolting and Richard being killed.
Thanks also to Sharmila. I will get back to you.

Regards Marion.

Interesting that his daughter is called Ellen & not Isabella.

1881:
Name: Richard J. Bradby
Age: 34
Estimated birth year: abt 1847
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Emma J.
Gender: Male
Where born: Slough, Buckinghamshire, England

Civil parish: Henley On Thames
County/Island: Oxfordshire
Country: England

Street address: Bell St

Occupation: Butcher

Registration district: Henley
Sub-registration district: Henley
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Richard J. Bradby 34
Emma J. Bradby 30
Ellen E. Bradby 4
Harry Bradby 3
Fred Bradby 1



Births Jun 1878
Bradby Ellen Edna Kingston 2a 292



Deaths Mar 1888
BRADBY Richard James 41 Henley 3a 520

Changed his surname by now.1861:
Name: Richard J Bradby
Age: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1847
Relation: Son
Father's name: Arthur G
Mother's name: Isabella M
Gender: Male
Where born: Slough, Buckinghamshire, England

Civil parish: Reading St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: Oxford
Town: Reading
County/Island: Berkshire
Country: England

Street address: 28 Bedford Place

Registration district: Reading
Sub-registration district: St Mary
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 153
Household Members: Name Age
Arthur G Bradby 32 - general agent
Isabella M Bradby 37
Richard J Bradby 14 - scholar
Sarah L Bradby 11
Mary A M Bradby 8
Arthur R E Bradby 5
Helen S Bradby 3
George S Bradby 1
Isabella M Bradby 7 Mo

If Thomas & Ellen didn't have children, who is this?

1851:
Name: Richard James Dell Carr
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1847
Relation: Adopted Son
Gender: Male
Where born: Slough, Berkshire, England

Civil parish: Reading St Mary
County/Island: Berkshire
Country: England

Street address: 61 Welldale St


Registration district: Reading
Sub-registration district: St Mary
ED, institution, or vessel: 1n
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 172
Household Members: Name Age
Arthur Granville Brady 23 - draper tailor
Isabella Maria Brady 25 (Isabella Carr)
Richard James Dell Carr 4
Sarah Louisa Bradley 1 - daughter


???
Births Sep 1846
Carr Richard James Bell Eton 6 377

Who did she marry & where is she in 1871 & 1881?

Ozi.

hi
Im intreaged now!
i found the one you have for Ellen Dell in 1861, but i dont think thats her, as the reason it doesnt give her bithplace is because if you look at the image it has a ditto mark in the space for place of birth which means this Ellen was born in Middlesex the same as the rest of the household.
so where is ellen? perhaps its the emma i gave you or she is just missing or that piece of the census isnt there
I think if you order the death cert for Thomas Dell in 1872, it would give more details and then you would know for sure that hes yours, if he is, then ellen remarried before her husband had died unless they got a divorce have you tried looking for divorce records.

Hello Sharmila,
Here is Ellen for 1861 down as Laundress.

Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 170; Folio: 77; Page: 6; GSU roll: 542585.


It doesn,t state where she was born but the age is about right..


Name: Ellen Dell
Age: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1821
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Female

Civil parish: St Giles
Ecclesiastical parish: London
Town: London
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

I have read your findings above so give me a while to go over them and I will get back to you. Thanks so much for your on going help.

Regards Marion

Thankyou Sharmala,

Yes its the same Ellen all right as it states clearly on both Marriage Certs her Father was Richard Carr Gentleman. Was it a lie Ellen told or just a mistake recorded on the Marriage Cert for 1865? I keep thinking Sharmala that something must have been terribly wrong with Ellen,s first marriage and so she fled. Just a gut feeling you might say but its like I get bad vibes with this one. Its like both parties Thomas and Ellen are dead as far as each other were concerned. I also wonder why Ellen didn,t go back to her family as she had the life one would expect coming from a wealthy family waited on hand and foot. I take note from the Census that Thomas Dell was a lodger in both 1861 and 1871 so mabe the business went bust and he fell on hard times? So many maybe,s. I do appreciate your help with this one so very very much.

Regards Marion

hello marion
I could not find Ellen in the 61 census, did you say you had her in the census working as a laundress?
i did find an Emma Dell age is slighly out, she is a lodger in the family, her occupation is down as independant, and her marital status isnt clear on the image but i believe there is a ditto mark which means the the same as the head of family who is married.


Name: Emma Dell
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Female
Where born: Oxfordshire, England

Civil Parish: Reading St Lawrence
Town: Reading
County/Island: Berkshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: Reading
Sub-registration district: St Lawrence
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 132
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Anter 16
Emma Dell 28
Ellen Garbett 33
Ellen Garbett 3
George Garbett 29
George Garbett 6
Elizabeth Holmer 12
Mary Turner 66

hello marion
Yes it does seem odd maybe the marriage had broken down and they just seperated and Ellen may have had no support from her family.
i wonder is the Ellen you have the second marriage for in 1865 the correct Ellen? if so and you are poss that she was a spinster/widow why did she lie? maybe a bigoumous marriage not unheard of in those days when a marriage broke down and there wasnt any children.
The 1871 census for Thomas may not be him as the age is way out, unless it was a mistake but it does seem a coincidence that its the same name, birthplace, and occupation dont you think? a bit of a puzzle for you.
ill look again later for you for Ellen in 1861.
Regards
Sharmala.

.

Sharm me again. That death you found maynot be the same Thomas? You have him as being 51 years in age at the time of death yet in the Census for 1871 he is aged 58 years. There are a few deaths for the name of Thomas Dell. I dare say they are all connected in one way or another for the Berkshire area. I,m still searhing or Ellen for 1861.

Thankyou Sharm so very much.
Regards Marion

Thanks Sharm,
Yes I have seen all of this and it makes one wonder what on Earth it all means. Well for me it does in any case. Why would Ellen say she was a Spinster when clearly she wasn,t. I know sometimes back then if a woman was a widow she did in fact record Spinster on the Marriage Cert for her details but this Thomas Dell is down as Widower for 1871.
I have been on this one trying to solve it for almost three years Sharm. I just cant find Ellen for 1861 unless that is her working as a Laundress? Her family were so very very rich and for Ellen to end up this way.... No I cant work it out.

Regards Marion