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Oooh Andrea, You really shouldn't have, I did intend on doing some digging myself after tea, ... but KIDS !!!!!! I'm off out now, and normally when I get back about 10pm, I'm really tired, so I'll have a fresh start tomorrow and try and take in all this info you have so very kindly and generously gathered for me. Please don't use any more credits on me ..I feel really guilty. I REALLY APPRECIATE ALL your help with this Andrea, you are a real STAR. T H A N K Y O U Dancer x

Elaine I've got a couple of spare units so I've looked at the Wilshaw deaths but only from 1866 when it starts and until 1881 because if they haven't died by then they should be there somewhere: 1 Wilshaw James 78 Aston.6d 282 Death 3 1874 2 Wilshaw James 89 Cheadle.6b 185 Death 4 1873 3 Wilshaw James Dudley.6c 5 Death 3 1873 4 Wilshaw James 60 Stafford.6b 6 Death 4 1881 5 Wilshaw James 56 Stoke Upon Trent.6b 188 Death 1 1877 6 Wilshaw James 46 Stourbridge.6c 157 Death 1 1875 7 Wilshaw James 1 Wolstanton.6b 72 Death 2 1873 8 Wilshaw James 80 Wolstanton.6b 89 Death 3 1872 The 1877 one looks most likely out of that lot but that would mean he should be somewhere in 1871. 1 Wilshaw Mary 72 Aston.6d 201 Death 4 1870 2 Wilshaw Mary 56 Cheadle.6b 179 Death 3 1878 3 Wilshaw Mary Cheadle.6b 195 Death 4 1867 4 Wilshaw Mary 47 Dudley.6c 3 Death 3 1873 5 Wilshaw Mary Ann 1 Dudley.6c 8 Death 3 1872 6 Wilshaw Mary 4 Dudley.6c 15 Death 2 1870 7 Wilshaw Mary Elizbeth 25 Leek.6b 229 Death 1 1875 8 Wilshaw Mary 17 Leek.6b 194 Death 1 1878 9 Wilshaw Mary 60 Stafford.6b 3 Death 3 1868 10 Wilshaw Mary Elizabeth 1 Stoke Upon Trent.6b 157 Death 3 1878 11 Wilshaw Mary 84 Stoke Upon Trent.6b 116 Death 2 1873 12 Wilshaw Mary 16 Stoke Upon Trent.6b 116 Death 2 1871 13 Wilshaw Mary 65 Wolstanton.6b 62 Death 3 1872 14 Wilshaw Mary Emma 1 Wolverhampton.6b 69 Death 3 1875 Nothing looks likely for Mary Ann so perhaps she remarried? Perhaps when you get mary Ann jnr's cert it will say whether James was deceased or not and that should give some clue. I checked the 1881 on familyhistoryonline too as I find that easier to navigate than ancestry and it often turns up people that I couldn't find but there is absolutely nothing on there for either of them. District Page No Event Quarter Year View Image 1 Wilshaw Mary Jane Cheadle.6b 399 Marriage 1 1883 2 Wilshaw Mary Leek.6b 359 Marriage 1 1884 3 Wilshaw Mary Alice Stoke Upon Trent.6b 291 Marriage 1 1890 4 Wilshaw Mary Stoke Upon Trent.6b 287 Marriage 1 1890 5 Wilshaw Mary Ann Stoke Upon Trent.6b 349 Marriage 2 1888 6 Wilshaw Mary Stoke Upon Trent.6b 246 Marriage 3 1877 7 Wilshaw Mary Ann Stone.6b 71 Marriage 2 1886 8 Wilshaw Mary Jane Wolstanton.6b 147 Marriage 2 1882 9 Wilshaw Mary Ann Wolstanton.6b 164 Marriage 1 1879 There's a couple of those marriages would be worthwhile looking up possibly too. Hope some of that is a little help even if it doesn't give you the 'right' answer. Andrea

Hi Andrea, Thanks so much for coming back to my rescue !! No, I don't have credit with FamilyRelatives ... I watched and listened to others, and I'm not convinced its a reliable site, so haven't been there yet !! I'm a fully paid up member with 1837 so I'll see if either/both of them died after 1861. Thanks for the suggestion. I've searched on VRI and FreeBMD for James Wilshaw marriage, but didn't get any matches for Mary A ..... yet again, you seem to have the golden touch ! I'll check 1837 for the GRO ref etc ...AND I'll re check VRI for that entry. I've spent most of the afternoon trawling 1871 but I really don't believe they are actually registered ... either, as you suggest, deceased, or not registered ... even checked Scotland/Wales ! Not a total waste of an afternoon, did find 3 other marriages on VRI and was able to confirm fathers - and get further back on a couple of lines. Thanks so much Andrea for your help with this one ... I'll do some more diggin after tea ! Dancer xx

Jumping ahead a bit here but there is a marriage on ancestry in Qtr 3 1850 between a James Wilshaw and a Mary Ann Curzon in Stoke on Trent. This would mean that they could be on the 1851 too and perhaps you could see if he was a boatman then too and if they have the same birth places you will know the 1861 record is correct? Got to go and do some housework now unfortunately. Andrea

Elaine Do you have familyrelatives credits? Don't want to repeat what you have already done but I have trawled through Bagnall, Hanley and Stoke on Trent (on Ancestry) and can't find anything even close. All I can find is the other family which is not helping matters so I wondered if both parents may have died? Andrea

Thanks Ian, I had found the entry on the GRO indexes ... and last night found the following on the NRI: ALLMAN, William Age: 30 Marriage Wife: Mary WILSHAW Age: 19 Marriage Date: 20 Aug 1877 Recorded in: Hanley, Staffordshire, England Collection: St John Husband's Father: William ALLMAN **Wife's Father: James WILSHAW** Source: FHL Film 1470997 Dates: 1872 - 1902 which confirms James Wilshaw as Mary's father. Thanks for your help. Dancer x

Hi Dancer, Marriage Registration Sept quarter 1877 - Mary Wilshaw, Stoke on Trent ref 6B 246 Hope this helps Ian

Thankyou Vera, I really appreciate your time and effort. Sorry for the delay getting back ... I am still 'trawling' ancestry for them :-( Thanks Vera Dancer x

Hi, 1871 census RG10/2861 FOLIO 64 PAGE 1 This is all Hanley Moor. Sorry no Wilshaws. RG10/2861 Folio 69 page 11 under William Wilshaw Salthouse Well ...temporary adsent... not very helpful. Regards Vera

Hi Dance, I have found Hanley Moor on the 1871 census, just to let you know will have a look. Keep your fingers crossed. Vera

*Helppppp* please ... my eye's have gone ! Has anyone got the facilities to search address in 1871 ? The 'Wilshaw' family in 1861 are living at Hanley Moor Bagnall James b 1824 Mary A b 1833 Mary A b 1859 Could they still be there in 1871 please ? Dancer x

Morning Andrea and everyone ! Thanks for having a look again last night. I was looking for James with daughter Mary A last night on 1871 ... but didn't find them either ! (Maybe he had died but found no entry that matches) Right, Mary A Wilshaw (from 1881) was b Stoke on Trent (NOT Warslow) 1859. The VRI gives James as her Father. I doubt there is a Sarah ! .. that came from finding wrong fam in 1871 ! I'm going to HAVE to send for marriage cert ... to clarify James's occupation, tie the cert with your find in 1861., but can't afford straight away ... so will keep trawling 1871 for Mary A Wilshaw b 1859 SoT. There are two poss Birth certs for Mary A: June 1859 SoT (covers Bagnall ) Sept 1858 Leek (covers Bagnal) Need to check the difference between the two Bagnal's. Any help appreciated ! Dancer x

Just thought I would have a quick look and here I still am! Have decided that the family I found in 1861 were just a teaser as they have disappeared by 1871 and aren't on 81 or 91 either. How annoying is it when that happens. Don't know what to suggest next - try again tomorrow? Andrea

Elaine Sorry, just got back on - Paul has answered that question for you - I've just been having a look for them myself - do you know for definite that there was another child called Sarah? If so do you know when and where she was born (if it wasn't the 1855 above). I'm going to bed now but I'll be in from work after 2.15 tomorrow if you need anymore help. Best Wishes Andrea

Cheers Paul ! I NEED to send for Marriage cert .... see what Fathers occ is on that ! ... see if I can tie the two togather. I'm currently trawling for all James Wilshaw's on 1871 & 1881 ... but at moment can't find James with daughter Mary b 1859 on 1871. Oh well ...they aren't going anywhere ! Need to shut PC down and close my eye's ..... I haven't concentrated on images for so long before !! and I'm suffering ! I'll be back tomorrow, to pick up the pieces ! Thanks Elaine :-)

Hi 'Dancer', Andrea's James WILSHAW is a boatman. Paul x

ALLMAN, William Age: 30 Marriage Wife: Mary WILSHAW Age: 19 Marriage Date: 20 Aug 1877 Recorded in: Hanley, Staffordshire, England Collection: St John Husband's Father: William ALLMAN **Wife's Father: James WILSHAW** Source: FHL Film 1470997 Dates: 1872 - 1902 Andrea ...you may have found the correct family in 1861 !!! THANK YOU Dancer x

Andrea's find for 1861: I can't dismiss it ... as the 1871 Mary A Wilshaw b 1859 Warslow with mum Mary A and sister Sarah ... may NOT be mine .... after all ! I'll check the VRI ... see if the Allman/Wilshaw marriage is listed. Should have done this earlier shouldn't I. Pickled Dancer x

sorry , ancestry just gone down for maintenance, will have a peep later, sue.

Hi Andrea, No, I've not seen that entry ! I spent all afternoon on Ancestry .... searching hundreds of Wilshaw/m entries and just could not find my family. Then I screamed for help, giving the info that I had found for 1871 (WHICH WAS WRONG !!!) ... and Margaret/Paul/Jonathon ALL came up with the same Willshaw entry ... another one I hadn't come up against ! I wonder, ... if your find is my fam, ? Cheers Andrea, your helping me out loads here ! (I Think !! LOL) WHAT is James Wilshaw's occupation please !!!!!!!!! and is this on Ancestry Andrea ? Cheers Derbyshire Dancer !! OK Sue, speak later babe !