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Thank you for sticking with this !! Prompted by your reply I've just looked for Hampshire-born MARTINS in the Dartford area in 1871. There is a William MARTIN ( given name for the father of Emma, who married John BELLCHAMBERS) living in Waterside, Dartford. This might be significant as that is the street where other BELLCHAMBERS family events are recorded. Unfortunately William's wife's name is not recorded, - just (blank) MARTIN.............just my luck. Still hunting for John and Emma in 1861. I think you may well be right about them being grouped into another family name. Thank you for your perseverence. Gwyn

Hmm. Long shot for Emma. 1851 England Census about Amme Martin Name: Amme Martin Age: 9 Estimated birth year: abt 1842 Gender: Female Where born: Galsgrove, Hampshire, England Civil parish: Twyford County/Island: Hampshire Country: England Street address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Disability: View image Registration district: Winchester Sub-registration district: Twyford ED, institution, or vessel: 5a Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 59 Household Members: Name Age Sarah Colas 13 Harriett Coles 11 John Cordery 7 Mary Ann Crisler 10 Henry Crock 7 Ellen Garding 20 Alfred Gevin 7 Fredk Gevin 9 Margrett Gewring 12 Letitia Horth 9 Fredk Howard 7 Mate Jayce 10 ===Amme Martin 9 Susan Martin 11 Frank Naish 7 Maria Naish 9 Elizh Robinson 26 Ellen Robinson 30 Maria Robinson 33 Thos Seling 5 John Shrimpton 9 Laurel Shrimpton 7

I wonder if Emma has a middle name which was used previously. I'll take another look, now my eyes have had a rest! They are very elusive! There are a few Martins born around the 1840, born Preston Candover that are Inmates in 1851. I did wonder if maybe the family had fallen on hard times and they were either put into workhouses or palmed off with whoever would have them. It is then possible that the enumerator might have listed them with the family surname of whoever they were with, therefore it might be nothing like Martin. I can't find Rhoda senior or junion in the earlier census. Or at least I couldn't earlier, with any spelling I tried! Fingers crossed I might or someone else might find them now! Mags

Thank you for all your interest. When John and Emma ( daughter of William a labourer) married the witnesses were John BELLCHAMBERS and Sarah GRUBB. Many of these children in 1901 were probably born as MARTIN, as there seems to be no registration for them as BELLCHAMBERS ( or similar) There is a Preston Candover in Hampshire and I wondered whether this is where the Andover came from, - as a misheard place? I think the Hampshire birthplaces are significant and would seem to link the elder MARTIN folk. In 1871 next -door- but -one an Emma MARTIN, aged 9 is a visitor, also born in Hampshire.... Is this significant, I wonder.? Thank you for finding Rhoda in 1861. This at least helps to determine that Rhoda and Emma ( who married John) are separate people. I still haven't found John and Emma in 1861 ..... Such a mess Gwyn

possible death for Rhoda if she never did marry Name: Rhoda Martin Estimated birth year: abt 1845 Year of Registration: 1902 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar Age at Death: 57 District: Dartford County: Kent Volume: 2a Page: 404

IGI Marriage for John & Emma JOHN BELCHAMBERS Male Family Marriages: Spouse: EMMA MARTIN Family Marriage: 08 FEB 1857 Bexley, Kent, England

Yep, does say Andover. That now makes me wonder. Rhoda is consistently from Preston or Winchester, why Andover here. Any ideas?? Can anyone find Rhoda senior in earlier census. Maybe we can eliminate by looking at Rhoda's siblings if possible. Gwynneth - do you know Emma's father's name from the certificate please? Also the witnesses names as that might also be useful. That might also help. Mags

Looking at the image it looks like Rodha or Radha - definitely starts with R. She is born in Andover.

Hiya, Yes, I keep looking at the name, I agree, I think it suppose to be Rhoda...obviously they weren't sure how to spell it. Regards Vera

Vera, do you think HADDIE is actually meant to be Rhoda. I think that would make sense. WDYT?

Hi Gwyneth, On the 1871 census that Mags and Nicky found there is a 2 year old Alice Martin...I wonder if this is her...but they have chamged her name to Belchambers. What do you think? I am trying to work out the name of the other person on that census ? Martin. 1881 England Census Name: Alice Belchambers Age: 12 Estimated birth year: abt 1869 Relation: Daughter Father's name: John Mother's name: Rhoda Gender: Female Where born: Dartford, Kent, England Civil parish: Dartford County/Island: Kent Country: England Street address: 1 Overy Liberty Court Education: Employment status: View image Occupation: Scholar Registration district: Dartford Sub-registration district: Dartford ED, institution, or vessel: 1 Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Alice Belchambers 12 Jane Belchambers 3 John Belchambers 44 John Belchambers 10 Rhoda Belchambers 37 Robt. Belchambers Rhoda Martin 70 Regards Vera

1901 for info again 1901 England Census about John Belchmaber Name: John Belchmaber Age: 27 Estimated birth year: abt 1874 Relation: Son Mother's name: Rhoda Gender: Male Where born: Dartford, Kent, England Civil parish: Dartford Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity Town: Dartford County/Island: Kent Country: England Registration district: Dartford Sub-registration district: Dartford ED, institution, or vessel: 4 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 163 Household Members: Name Age Jane Belchmaber 22 John Belchmaber 27 Rhoda Belchmaber 57 Robert Belchmaber 20 George Walton 45 Jane Belchmaber abt 1879 Dartford, Kent, England Daughter Dartford Kent John Belchmaber abt 1874 Dartford, Kent, England Son Rhoda Belchmaber abt 1844 Winchester, Hampshire, England Head Robert Belchmaber abt 1881 Dartford, Kent, England Son Jane Belchmaber abt 1879 Dartford, Kent, England Daughter Dartford Kent John Belchmaber abt 1874 Dartford, Kent, England Son Rhoda Belchmaber abt 1844 Winchester, Hampshire, England Head Robert Belchmaber abt 1881 Dartford, Kent, England Son George Walton abt 1856 Dartford, Kent, England Boarder

1881 the one you've already got with them with Rhoda senior: 1881 England Census about Rhoda Belchambers Name: Rhoda Belchambers Age: 37 Estimated birth year: abt 1844 Relation: Wife Spouse's name: John Mother's name: Rhoda Gender: Female Where born: Preston Casey, Hampshire, England Civil parish: Dartford County/Island: Kent Country: England Street address: 1 Overy Liberty Court Condition as to marriage: Married Occupation: Wife Registration district: Dartford Sub-registration district: Dartford ED, institution, or vessel: 1 Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Alice Belchambers 12 Jane Belchambers 3 John Belchambers 44 John Belchambers 10 Rhoda Belchambers 37 Robt. Belchambers Rhoda Martin 70 Alice Belchambers abt 1869 Dartford, Kent, England Daughter Dartford Kent Jane Belchambers abt 1878 Dartford, Kent, England Daughter John Belchambers abt 1837 Dartford, Kent, England Head John Belchambers abt 1871 Dartford, Kent, England Son Rhoda Belchambers abt 1844 Preston Casey, Hampshire, England Wife Robt. Belchambers Dartford, Kent, England Son Rhoda Martin abt 1811 Preston, Hampshire, England Mother in Law 1891 just to keep it all together 1891 England Census about John Bellchamber Name: John Bellchamber Age: 53 Estimated birth year: abt 1838 Relation: Head Spouse's name: ??Da Gender: Male Where born: Dartford, Kent, England Civil parish: Dartford Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity Town: Dartford County/Island: Kent Country: England Registration district: Dartford Sub-registration district: Dartford ED, institution, or vessel: 1 Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age ??Da Bellchamber 47 Jane Bellchamber 12 John Bellchamber 53 John Bellchamber 18 Robert Bellchamber 10 Kate Morris 47 ??Da Bellchamber abt 1844 Hampshire, England Wife Dartford Kent Jane Bellchamber abt 1879 Dartford, Kent, England Daughter John Bellchamber abt 1838 Dartford, Kent, England Head John Bellchamber abt 1873 Dartford, Kent, England Son Robert Bellchamber abt 1881 Dartford, Kent, England Son

1861 probably Rhoda then. 1861 England Census about Roda Martin Name: Roda Martin Age: 19 Estimated birth year: abt 1842 Relation: Lodger Gender: Female Where born: Hampshire, England Civil parish: Dartford Ecclesiastical parish: Dartford Town: Dartford County/Island: Kent Country: England Registration district: Dartford Sub-registration district: Dartford ED, institution, or vessel: 5 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 271 Household Members: Name Age Ann Johnson 42 Ellen Johnson 18 George Johnson 12 Henry Johnson 16 John Johnson 7 Martha Johnson 20 Richard Johnson 42 William Johnson 3 Roda Martin 19 Ellen Johnson abt 1843 Dartford, Kent, England Daughter Dartford Kent George Johnson abt 1849 Boro, London, England Son Henry Johnson abt 1845 Boro, London, England Son John Johnson abt 1854 Boro, London, England Son Martha Johnson abt 1841 Dartford, Kent, England Daughter William Johnson abt 1858 Dartford, Kent, England Son Roda Martin abt 1842 Hampshire, England Lodger

So, is the John I've found in 1871 above, with Haddie MARLIN the right person do you think? Probably Marlin is MARTIN. Just wondered if this could be a sister of Emma (or brother - whatever!)> Mags

Thank you for searching. John died in 1895.... Emma we're not sure about. John is later seen with a Rhoda MARTIN, mother in law and a wife Rhoda. The younger Rhoda is shown as a widow in 1901, with the same set of children, more or less. No death cert. found for Emma (nee MARTIN) No marriage found for Rhoda to John. No death cert. found for Rhoda BELLCHAMBERS, ..we suspect that they probably didn't marry. She was possibly the 'housekeeper' in 1871, ...although John is recorded as married. Finding John in 1861, might help fathom this mixed up family. Gwyn

Do you know they were both definitely alive after the 1861 census? Thanks Mags

1861 for his father can't find him yet!! 1861 England Census about John Bellehambers Name: John Bellehambers Age: 48 Estimated birth year: abt 1813 Relation: Head Spouse's name: Sarah Gender: Male Where born: Woolwich, Kent, England Civil parish: Dartford Ecclesiastical parish: Dartford Town: Dartford County/Island: Kent Country: England Registration district: Dartford Sub-registration district: Dartford ED, institution, or vessel: 1 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 222 Household Members: Name Age Edwin Bellehambers 8 James Bellehambers 18 John Bellehambers 48 Sarah Bellehambers 49

1871 is this him? Just shown as HEAD, not widowed. Can't find him with Emma yet. Occupation is Labourer Name: John Bellchamber Age: 34 Estimated birth year: abt 1837 Relation: Head Gender: Male Where born: Dartford, Sussex, England Civil parish: Dartford Ecclesiastical parish: Canterbury Town: Dartford County/Island: Kent Country: England Registration district: Dartford Sub-registration district: Dartford ED, institution, or vessel: 7 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 260 Household Members: Name Age John Bellchamber 34 Haddie Marlin 28 Alice Martin 2

looking for 61 now Here is 51 for my info to cross ref 1851 England Census about John Bellchamber Name: John Bellchamber Age: 15 Estimated birth year: abt 1836 Relation: Son Father's name: John Mother's name: Sarah Gender: Male Where born: Dartford, Kent, England Civil parish: Dartford County/Island: Kent Country: England Registration district: Dartford Sub-registration district: Bexley ED, institution, or vessel: 1a Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 108 Household Members: Name Age James Bellchamber 8 John Bellchamber 36 John Bellchamber 15 Sarah Bellchamber 37 William Bellchamber 2 James Bellchamber abt 1843 Dartford, Kent, England Son Dartford Kent John Bellchamber abt 1815 Woolwich, Kent, England Head (MILLER) John Bellchamber abt 1836 Dartford, Kent, England Son (WORK IN SILK PAINTING FACTORY) Sarah Bellchamber abt 1814 Chevening, Kent, England Wife William Bellchamber abt 1849 Dartford, Kent, England Son