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Hi, Does anyone have Alfred Shepherd and Rosina (Rose) Shepherd in their tree? They were married in Holborn in 1873 and had a daughter Lilli. I believe there were other children but don't know. Alfred was either a Smith or whitesmith and Rose was a dressmaker. Rose's maiden name was Fralin. Lilli married George Baker in 1900. Think there is possibility these were my great grand-parents. Shepherd could be spelt differently, as I have found a reference to Rose and Lilli spelt Shepperd. Would really appreciate any information anyone might be able to give me as I can't find my grand-father anywhere but this couple fit with what we know of my great grand-parents occupations. George Baker was the older brother of my grandmother. I am wondering if Lilli could have been my grandfather's sister. Thanks, Jeanette

Hi, I now have proof that my grandfather James Sheppard was Lilli Sheppard's brother. James married Maria Byrne (nee Baker) in 1920, they were my father's parents. Maria's first husband died in 1918.

Maria's brother George Baker married James' sister Lilli in 1900. James and Lilli's parents were Alfred Shepherd and Rosina (Rose) Fralin, her full name was Leonie Rosina Louise, but she went by Rose. These names are given in different orders depending on which documents etc you are reading.

The spelling of Shepherd seems to have changed at some point, and again there can be inconsistencies of it's spelling on censuses etc. Despite all this my grandfather James' birth records have proved extremely elusive as have death records for his father and mother.

James joined the Royal Marines in 1897- and his age was 19 but he may have lied as the story is that he ran away to join the marines as his father wanted him to do an apprenticeship as a white/silversmith. If any of this rings any bells for anyone please contact me. Thanks Jeanette

Please can you space this out,
it is so hard to read a stream of conciousness ?

Where have you looked for relatives ?

Hi Jeanette, please could you also give some indication as to when and where these people were born?

For reference - going by the marriage to George Baker -

Births Jun 1877
Shepherd Lilly Ethel L Holborn 1b 715

Marriages Mar 1900
**********Baker George William Strand 1b 677
Holman Mary Strand 1b 677
Powell John Strand 1b 677
**************Shepherd Lilly Ethel L Strand 1b 677

I trust that you have your grand parents marriage cert Jeanette? This should have given you his name and fathers name (if he told the truth) -

Marriages Mar 1920
**********Byrne Maria Sheppard Islington 1b 504
Clackson Frances M Standford Islington 1b 504
**************Sheppard James Byrne Islington 1b 504
Standford Ernest W Clackson Islington 1b 504

Marriages Mar 1920 (>99%)
Byrne Maria Sheppard Islington 1b 504
Sheppard James Byrne Islington 1b 504

Marriages Dec 1873 (>99%)
Fralin Rosina Leonie Holborn 1b 1113
Shepherd Alfred Holborn 1b 1113

Births Dec 1855 (>99%)
Fralin Leonie Rosina St. Giles 1b 321



1901 England Census
about Rose Shepherd
Name: Rose Shepherd
Age: 46
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relation: Visitor
Gender: Female
Where born: St Giles

Civil parish: St Andrew Holborn Above The Bars and St George The Martyr
Ecclesiastical parish: St John the Evangelist Red Lion Square
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: Holborn
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 421
Piece: 245
Folio: 184
Page Number: 48
Household Members:
Name Age
George W Baker 22 Islington
Lilli Baker 22 Clerkenwell
Lilli M Baker 4 Months Holborn
Rose Shepherd 46 (Visitor) Widow

1891:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FIDLIN, Elizabeth Head Widow F 61 1830 Costumier Coventry.... (Fralin !)
SHEPPERD, Rose L Daughter Widow F 33 1858 Costumier St Giles in the Fields London
SHEPPERD, Lilly E Daughter Single F 12 1879 Clerkenwell London (14 on image !!)
SHEPPERD, Louis S Son Single M 16 1875 Lime Lighter Clerkenwell London **

**(Looks to me like Louis 'J' on image!!) I wonder if this could be Louis JAMES ??

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:RG12 Piece:216 Folio:81 Page:37

Registration District:
Strand Sub District:
St Mary Le Strand Enumeration District:
4 Ecclesiastical Parish:
St Clement Danes

Civil Parish:
St Clement Danes Municipal Borough:
Address:
22, Clare Street, St Clement Danes County:
London


Dea x

Does your father's birth certificate give his mother as Maria Sheppard, nee Byrne, formerly Baker (or visa versa) please?
In other words, does it give the names Baker AND Byrne as past names?

The reason I ask is, I see that his mmn in the birth records is given as Baker, but I wondered how you knew for certain that she was previously married to a Byrne?

Sorry to seem 'picky' but I just thought we ought to ckeck that you have worked backwards with all the necessary certs etc.

Hi again, I've tried to space it out now Lindsey - sorry, I should have thought about that as I wrote it - it's a lot easier to read spaced out.

I have my grandparents marriage certificate - which gives my grandfather's age as 43 - that was 16th March, 1920. His death certificate which gives his age as 73 on 17th October, 1954. However, I also have one original sheet of his service papers from the Royal Marines which gives his date of birth as 24th March, 1877 and his age on enlistment as 19 years and 10 months. This would have made him 77 on his death - although he may have shaved a few years off when he married, or added years to enable him to enlist without parental permission.

On my grandparents marriage certificate James gives his fathers details as Alfred James Sheppard (deceased) - a whitesmith. I also have copies of Rosina's birth certificate and her marriage certificate to Alfred, and Lilli's birth certificate and marriage certificate to George Baker.

Thank you Jeanette :) So, on your fathers birth certificate does it give his mother as previously Byrne as well as Baker please? Is that how you knew that you had the right grandparents?

I am only asking because there is another Sheppard-Baker marriage that would have fit your fathers parents too.

The birth date of 24th March, 1877 is unlikely to be true as his sister Lilly's birth was registered in that quarter and they were not registered as twins ???

As a matter of interest, what is the exact date of birth for Lilly ?

What do you think about the details I posted from 1891 census above??

Do you think that James may have been a middle name for him?

Dea x

Hi Christine, none of you seem picky at all, I really appreciate the help everyone is trying to give.

Dad's birth certificate shows his Mother's name as Maria Sheppard late Byrne formerly Baker. I also have copies of her marriage certificate to Alexander Byrne, and Maria and James' marriage certificate show her as widowed.

I originally traced Lilli Sheppard's birth etc in case there was a link because I couldn't find my grandfather's birth. Lilli's birth date is 29th March, 1877. We were always told that my grandfather's parents were a whitesmith and a dressmaker (Rosina is supposed to have made costumes for a theatre on Drury Lane). These details fit in with the details we have found of Lilli's parents. I also have Lilli's death certificate for 1905.

On the service sheet I have from the RM's - the next of kin was given as Lilly Baker - Niece - this has then been written on top of to change it to Maria Baker on his marriage. Lilly and George Baker had a daughter Lilly born in 1900. This is how I finally made the connection between them.

There is also a conflict as James gave his religion as RC on joining the Marines - my father was brought up C of E (although after Maria's death in 1925 - he was sent to an orphanage until he was 7 when he was admitted to Greenwich Naval School so whether this is why). However, there has always also been talk of either James or Maria being Jewish.

Hi Dea, I think the 1891 census you found is very promising. Dad said that James was a family name (he was also James which is why I haven't used his name at all - as it can get confusing). So Louis James would make sense as my great grandfather was Alfred James and that would give the consistency of it being a family name. I have struggled to pick them up on most censuses and Rose seems to disappear again on the 1911 census.

Sorry - Have to go out just now but will pick up on it again when I get back.

Dea x

Thank you again Jeanette :)
I have to go now but will pop in later to see how things are going.

My sister got someone to check the RM records - but she didn't get any copies and the gentleman said the only info which would be of use to us was that on entry my grandfather gave his next of kin as his mother Mrs R. Sheppard and that was also where he stated he was Roman Catholic.

I have the birth certificate for Louis Sheppard born 1874 in Marylebone, but his parents are William and Sarah, which is wrong. I also have a birth certificate for James John Shepherd born in Gillingham to James and Susan Shepherd 24th March, 1878. This would fit with the date of birth given by my grandfather but the year and parents don't fit.

1871 England Census
about Eliz Fralin
Name: Eliz Fralin
[Eliz Hayman]
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relation: Head
Father's name: Sam Hayman
Gender: Female
Where born: Coventry, Warwickshire, England
Civil parish: St James Clerkenwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St James Pentonville
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: Pentonville
Household Members:
Name Age
Eliz Fralin 37 Widow (Flowermaker) Coventry
Rose Fralin 15
Lily Fralin 13
Sam Hayman 75 Father
Mary Thornley 30 Sister

Hi Jeanette - I was intersevted in your search as my Ggrandmother was Mary annie Shephard from Oxon. Unfortunately can't find any link between but you never know.

Following on from PricklyHolly, in the1851 English Census living on DRURY LANE

Samuel Hayman c1789 b. Devon - Chelsea Pensioner
Rose Hayman c1800 b. Ireland
Elizabeth Hayman c1829 b. Warwick, Coventry
Mary Hayman c1831 b. W.Indies, Bermuda
Jane Hayman c1842 b. Middx - St.Giles

You may well know all this but thought I'd pass it on just in case you didn't
Good luck
Hevkins

I found Marriage Banns for Rosina Leonine Fralin and Alfred Shepherd on Ancestry. Transcription below, but please contact me with email if you want a digital copy.

Dina

Date: 20 Dec 1873
Parish: St. John the Evangelist, Red Lion Square (looks like Trinity Church in the parish? hard to read)

Groom: Alfred Shepherd, age 21, Bachelor, Blacksmith
Father of Groom: Henry Shepherd, Engineer

Bride: Rosina Leonie Fralin, 18, Spinster, no job listed
Father of Bride: Louis Theophilus Fralin, Diamond Letter? (Diamond is clear, but Letter is best guess)