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Thank you Nameslessone.

I was told the same. My Grandad was born illegitimate and was told on his foster mother's death bed he was better off not knowing. so he didn't.

My Nana (his wife) her dad Ernest Clifford ran off with a schoolgirl months before her birth and had another family before he was found and sentenced. Other marriages followed. I have the newspaper reports and rightly so, the young girl and their 3 children are unnamed.

I get why they kept secrets, self preservation and all that.

Its a real shame though I can't share anything with them - if that is a good thing or not.

So quiet a family

I've known several people who have been told categoricaly not to investigate and then a later generation does just that - so there is always hope.

Shame you don't have much in the way of matches, my fathers paternal side are hopeless.

I've looked at my chart and a match to a descendant of JJ would be your 3rd cousin, their offspring would be 3rd cousins x 1,2 removed etc. This is the point when matches are not necessarily named as such on Ancestry.

Make sure you group your matches. This way you can more easily study any unknown groups. For instance, some of my matches are grouped by a family name, others by where they originally came from. I am very lucky that I don't have cross overs.

NEVE, ERNEST CLIFFORD COPLAND
GRO Reference: 1891 M Quarter in BLOFIELD UNION Volume 04B Page 203

NEVE, WALTER THOMAS COPLAND
GRO Reference: 1888 J Quarter in BLOFIELD UNION Volume 04B Page 219

NEVE, WALTER 1
GRO Reference: 1890 J Quarter in NORWICH Volume 04B Page 97

NEVE, JOHN VALENTINE COPLAND
GRO Reference: 1883 J Quarter in BLOFIELD UNION Volume 04B Page 213

Deaths Dec 1883 (>99%)
NEVE John Valentine 0 Blofield 4b 121

NEEVE, JAMES ROBERT COPLING
GRO Reference: 1881 J Quarter in LODDON Volume 04B Page 214


1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Street, Loddon, Norfolk, England

John Neeve Head Married Male 21 1860 Wherryman (waterman) Aylsham, Norfolk, England
Esther Neeve Wife Married Female 20 1861 - Buxton, Norfolk, England
Georgina Copland Sister in law Single Female 19 1862 Cook (d) Buxton, Norfolk, England
George Copland Brother in law Single Male 12 1869 Scholar Buxton, Norfolk, England


The above is for background...............................


CWGC record of the son alviegal mentioned earlier

Private
CLIFFORD DAVID NEVE
Service Number: 12/2795
Regiment & Unit/Ship
Auckland Regiment, N.Z.E.F.
1st Bn
Died 21 November 1916
Age 22 years
Buried or commemorated at
BIRMINGHAM (LODGE HILL) CEMETERY
Screen Wall. B10. 607.
United Kingdom
Country of Service
New Zealand
Son of John William Neve, of Wayby, Auckland, New Zealand

His birth

First name(s) David Clifford
Country New Zealand
Last name Neve
Registration year 1895
Record set New Zealand Birth Index
Father's first name(s) John William
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Mother's first name(s) Esther Ruth
Subcategory Civil Births
Registration number 1895/10759

I tested with Ancestry.

Found a few on Paternal side, but as you say 50/50 chance that no one connected at all has tested.

Maternal side not so lucky. My Nana was Ernest's 3rd child and was born under the surname May.

Due to a lot of scandals, the family closed ranks and so I took up ancestry to discover them.

If there are no matches there is a 50/50 chance that no one connected at all has tested or you are not blood related.

I wonder who you tested with. Ancestry has 3 times more data than My Heritage.

Don’t forget, thst sometimes you have to work a matches tree yourself to find a connection. This is called a dirty tree.

I Agree Erika Ernest's birth father appears unknown on his birth certificate.

Esther's family in NZ advised me that the story passed down was that Ernest was JJ's but again we don't know without proof.

I merely acknowledge JJ because he raised him. I still wish to find out all I can about him, he deserves that at least.

I was hoping that the 1891 census would shed a little light that's all on JJ.

Marriages Sep 1953 (>99%)
MAY Ernest C REEVE Newcastle T. 1b 341
NEVE Ernest C REEVE Newcastle T. 1b 341
REEVE Mary E NEVE Newcastle T. 1b 341
REEVE Mary E MAY Newcastle T. 1b 341

Marriages Sep 1963 (>99%)
NEVE ERNEST C BOLAN NEWCASTLE T. 1B 313

Deaths Jun 1970 (>99%)
NEVE Ernest Clifford 2Ja1891 Newcastle/T 1b 143

Esther in 1891 with Ernest C Reave b Lingwood 3 months and James R Reave 10 b Loddon.

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Lingwood Workhouse, Workhouse Road, Lingwood, Blofield, Norfolk, England
View original record
Transcript of Ester R's record
First name(s) Ester R
County Norfolk
Last name Reave
Country England
Relationship Inmate
Registration district Blofield
Marital status Married
Sub district Blofield
Sex Female
Enumeration district 9
Age 30
Parliamentary borough or division East Norfolk
Birth year 1861
Ecclesiastical parish or district Lingwood
Birth town -
Archive reference RG12
Birth county Norfolk
Piece number 1538
Birth county as transcribed NORFOLK
Folio 110
Birth place England
Page 4
Occupation Domestic servant general
Schedule 19
Full address Lingwood Workhouse, Workhouse Road, Lingwood, Blofield, Norfolk, England
Record set 1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
House name Lingwood Workhouse
Category Census, land & surveys
House number -
Subcategory Census
Street Workhouse Road
Collections from Great Britain, England

Sorry, but unless you can somehow find some PROOF, you cannot say that JJM is related to you. You originally said that Ernest’s father was someone his mother was employed by……even suggested in one post that it was a doctor.
Having said that, one has to wonder why the child was handed over to a man from Newcastle,if there was no connection...................

You can, with certainty, only go back on Ernest’s line through his mother...............unless, as I said, you can find proof.

The birth was registered as though the woman's husband was his father

John Joseph is my Grt Grt Grandfather. He had 2 wives not including Ellen Serle

Ernest Clifford was my Grt Grandfather, His first wife was my Nan's mother.

I did a DNA test but no matches for this line of family sadly. Although I have confirmed details from family members over the years.

Ernest Clifford dropped the surname May when he married for the second time. He had deserted his first wife and three children for which he was sentenced - there is more to the story which explains in more detail but I don't want to confuse anymore than I have apparently.

On another note, totally irrelevant to this search, Esther Ruth Neve had another son named Clifford who died in 1916. There is a picture of him here. He was the third son of John and Esther.

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/AS19161229.2.16.5?items_per_page=10&query=john+neve&snippet=true

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/403483/clifford-david-neve/

1895/10759 Neve David Clifford Esther Ruth John William

1894/4503 Neve William John Esther Ruth John William

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/134629378/clifford-david-neve

Ernest Clifford Neve died under that name………may have married twice using the name.

So he didn’t apparently think he was related to JJM

Ernest Clifford Neve died under that name………may have married twice.

So he didn’t apparently think he was related to JJM

So many confusing posts..................just hoping for one bit of clarity ;-) ;-) ;-)

If JJM is her direct line, which of his proven children is the link?

OP says John Joseph May is her grt grt grandfather so presumably she has her line going back to that - isn’t it all the others she is trying to place?

A very tangled web.

Still don't know which of these many people is your blood relative...............................

This is where a dna test may come in useful.

Whilst it may not solve everything you may be able to prove or disprove a family story.

The test is best taken from someone in the generation closest to the one you are researching.

Ernest was born the illegitimate son of Esther Ruth Neve whilst her husband was in New Zealand.
She set sail and although bought a ticket for Ernest he did not set sail which was confirmed by New Zealand records. Esther died a couple of years later in NZ.

This is why I was hoping to find the 1891 Census for John Jospeh as at this time he left his wife Dorothy nee Armitage and she took up with Robert Percival having a family with hem. Oldest daughter sent away to her parents.
Later Dorothy and Robert Percival separated and she went on to marry Mr Daley.

(The story goes that Esther had an affair with a DR who she was a servant too producing Ernest. John Joseph a relative took the baby. No one is sure and it's hearsay).

I initially asked if anyone could see John Joseph in the 1891 Census as I have tried without success. I gave background thinking this may be helpful.
I have also been unsuccessful in tracing the birth or marriage of Ellen Serle to John Joseph. which I thought may assist also in finding the elusive census.

Apologies didn't mean to confuse people.

The OP is about Ellen Serle, who Jinet refers to as her 'relative', so I'm not sure who we are supposed to be looking for...............

Interestingly, Ernest (or at least, "infant") is on the list of passengers in 1892 when his mother Ester and (half?)-brother James emigrated to NZ.

His entry has been scored through, with a note which looks like "No B", whatever that means.
So the decision to leave him in England must have been a last-minute one.