Find Ancestors

Abby, yes, I already have it, thanks. It should be Allen. Mary (Molly) was my half great aunt.

alviegal, yes, I already have it, thanks. George was my great grandfather. Their youngest child (my grandmother) was born in 1923.

Mary (Molly) was Gertrude's daughter. She was my half great aunt.

ArgyllGran, thanks for it. I will check it.

Baptism entry
While we have made all efforts to correctly record the information in the original document there may be different interpretations of the written words. If you have access to the original document and believe we have made a mistake you are encouraged to report this to us. Report an Error in this Data
Field
(only fields with a value are shown) Value
Church name (Links to more information) St Mary Magdalene
Register type (Links to more information) Parish Register
Register entry number 249
Birth date 12 Sep 1906
Baptism date 04 Dec 1906
Person forename Mary Gertrude Ellen
Person sex ?
Father forename -
Mother forename Gertrude
Father surname -
Mother surname RUTHERFORD
Person abode 39, Westdale Road
Father occupation -
Notes -
Transcribed by Rae
Credit Rae
File line number 249

Not helping but here is the 1921 for Gertrude.

1921 Census Of England & Wales
34, Ogilby Street, Woolwich, London & Kent, England

Household members (5 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship to head Sex Birth year Age in years Birth place Occupation Employer
George Baker Head
Male 1888 33 Portsmouth, Hampshire, England Farrier Soldier A S C Soldier Pending Discharge
Gertrude Baker Wife
Female 1889 32 Woolwich, Kent, England Domestic Duties -
Ellen Celia Baker Daughter
Female 1918 3 Woolwich, Kent, England - -
George Albert Baker Son
Male 1920 1 Woolwich, Kent, England - -
Mary Ruthford Step-daughter (father dead)
Female 1906 14 Woolwich, Kent, England Shop Assistant & Domestic Help Mr Baker Tobacconist


??
RUTHERFORD, MARY GERTRUDE ALLEN -
GRO Reference: 1906 D Quarter in WOOLWICH Volume 01D Page 1238

Merely a suggestion -

John Allen
in the Sutton, Surrey, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1915
Name John Allen
Baptism Date 13 Oct 1816
Baptism Place Sutton, St Nicholas, Surrey, England
Parish as it Appears Sutton
Father
John Allen - farmer
Mother
Mary Allen

ErikaH and ArgyllGran,

Many thanks for your help.

I will check with John Allen (B 1814) to find out about him.

I will be away for few days from today. :-)

The unmarried ‘butcher’ found in 1861 was still a pauper in the workhouse in 1871

Name John Allen
Age 57
Estimated Birth Year 1814
Relation Pauper
Gender Male
Where born Hutton, Surrey, England
Civil parish Hackney St John
Ecclesiastical parish Homerton St Barnabas
Town Hackney
County/Island London
Country England
Registration District Hackney
Sub-registration district West Hackney
ED, institution, or vessel Hackney Union Workhouse
Household schedule number 1
Piece 327 Folio 168 Page number 2

The only mention of JJA’s father is on his marriage certs……..no proof anywhere of his identity.

His not being described as ‘deceased’ on those certs does not actually carry any weight, as JJA never lived with him, and TBH, probably had no idea of his identity.

Sorry to seem negative, but one has to be realistic ;-) ;-)

Thanks for explaining all that, Steven.
The additional information is helpful and does seem to support your theories - possibly.

It's a pity we can't find JJA before his marriage.

ErikaH and ArgyllGran

I have only one DNA match for Allen who is Angela from Queensland. Her great grandfather was Robert Allen (JJA’s son). Some names of her family tree is incorrect. I explained to her but no reply, yet. She has 3 shared DNA matches with me who are related to Brion. There is no Brion in her family tree.

My father (Gertrude was his grandmother) has highest DNA (64 cM | < 1% shared DNA) with Peter from England. His great great grandparents were Stephen Weller and Sarah Brion.

I am still not understanding about DNA numbers. :-(

ArgyllGran

Yes, you are correct that you found Gertrude’s baptism record.

Your story “IF” is correct. That’s what I thought.

My foster great great grandparents, James Rutherford and Mary Ann never been married. I was looking for a copy of their marriage certificate for many years and I give up. Yes, her surname could be Davis where I found out that her place of birth and year of birth are same (from censuses). Few years ago, I contacted someone who is related to Mary Ann Davis' family. She agreed with me. But there is no evidence, yet.

Here is 1901 census . James Rutherford changed his surname to Rook. His mother’s maiden was Rook that I have a copy of James’ birth certificate.

Name Gertrude Rook
Age 12
Estimated Birth Year abt 1889
Relation to Head Daughter
Gender Female
Father James Rook
Mother Mary Rook
Birth Place Woolwich, London, England
Civil parish Woolwich
Ecclesiastical parish St John the Evangelist
County/Island London
Country England
Registration District Woolwich
Sub-registration district Woolwich

Here is 1911 census. Gertrude was a visitor to see her future parents in law, Ellen Pearce (my great great grandmother) and her second husband, Edward Pearce.

Name Gertrude Rutherford
Age in 1911 22
Estimated Birth Year abt 1889
Relation to Head Visitor
Gender Female
Civil parish Woolwich
County/Island London
Country England
Street Address 21 Upper Harden Street, Woolwich
Marital Status Single
Occupation Laundress

Her birth of place is not known. :-(

ErikaH

Yes, JJA was a police constable for only one year (July 1880 to July 1881). He was resigned because he was drunk. Poor him. I contacted Historian Norfolk Police and I got their reply. However, there was not enough information about him. After that, he was a labour, according to Gertrude’s baptism record and a list of passengers (to Queensland).

JJA and his family was left from London in August 1888, and they arrived in Townsville (near Brisbane) in December 1888. So, they would leave Buckinghamshire before August 1888.

JJA’s first marriage to Sarah Williment in 1880 (The Register Office), their two witnesses were R.G. Williment (Sarah’s brother) and Mary Ann Dagger. I could not find out who she was. JJA’s father was still alive.

JJA’s second marriage to Elizabeth Stillaman in 1886, their three witnesses were Elizabeth’s siblings, William Henry, Mary Ellza and Sarah Ann Stillaman. JJA’s father was still alive.

** IF ** JJA was indeed Gertrude's father, he managed to make his escape to Australia just before she was born, avoiding all financial or other claims against him.

Presumably Gertrude's mother had her baptised around the time she handed her over to the Rutherfords, hence the addition of their name .


However, unless Steven knows more than he's told us, there is no way to be certain that "John Allen" is JJA. It's not an uncommon name.

An unmarried Margaret Allen may even have invented a husband named John, for the sake of respectability.

I can't see Gertrude after 1891, but presumably Steven knows her later history, if she's his gr-grandmother.

By the time Gertrude was baptised, her ALLEGED father had been in Australia for over 9 months

Yes, that's what I thought!

A bit of a change from Policeman to Labourer.

I assume this is your gr-grandmother's baptism record?

Gertrude Rutherford Allen
in the London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1924
Name Gertrude Rutherford Allen
Gender Female
Record Type Baptism
Baptism Date 22 Sep 1889
Baptism Place Saint Mary Magdalene, Woolwich: Church Street, Greenwich, Greenwich, England
Father John Allen [labourer]
Mother Margaret Allen
Register Type Parish Register

Born 21 Dec 1888.

Address: 1 Rush Grove Street



Gertrude Rutherford
in the 1891 England Census
Name Gertrude Rutherford
Gender Female
Age 2
Relationship Daughter
Birth Year 1889
Father
James Rutherford
Mother
M A Rutherford
Birth Place Lambeth, London, England
Civil parish Plumstead
Residence Place Plumstead, London, England [ 90 Sandy Hill Road ]
Registration District Woolwich
Sub registration district Plumstead, West
ED, Institution or Vessel 7
Piece 535
Folio 151A
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
James Rutherford 39 Head - general labourer - Burgh, Cumberland
M A Rutherford 38 Wife - Walworth
Gertrude Rutherford 2 Daughter


I don't see a marriage for James and M A Rutherford [ who is possibly Mary Ann Davis ].

ALLEN, JOHN WILLIMENT
GRO Reference: 1882 M Quarter in BILLERICAY Volume 04A Page 322 Occasional Copy: A
ALLEN, ROBERT WILLIMENT
GRO Reference: 1880 D Quarter in NORWICH Volume 04B Page 171
ALLEN, WALTER WILLIMENT
GRO Reference: 1884 S Quarter in BILLERICAY Volume 04A Page 353

Name Sarah Ann Allen
Death Age 27
Birth Date abt 1857
Death Date abt 1884
Burial Date 29 Aug 1884
Burial Place Childerditch, All Saints And St Faith, Essex, England
Source Description Burial Register; Service of Church: Registers of Baptisms, Marriages and Burials; Incumbent; Childerditch, All Saints and St Faith; Parish Records;1813-1992

Name John James Allen
Gender Male
Marriage Age Full Age
Marriage Date 22 Feb 1886
Marriage Place Great Warley, St Mary The Virgin, Essex, England
Father John James Allen
Spouse Elizabeth Ann Stillaman

I am aware that you have these records, but posting on here for clarity for helpers

Who were the witnesses to the 2 marriages?

Another question……..sorry

How have you proved that John James Allen, Policeman in Norfolk in 1881 is the man named on a baptism record in Woolwich c1888?

Deaths

WELLER, ANDREW 1
GRO Reference: 1858 D Quarter in WYCOMBE Volume 03A Page 248
WELLER, WILLIAM 1
GRO Reference: 1855 S Quarter in WYCOMBE Volume 03A Page 215
WELLER, ANN 2
GRO Reference: 1858 M Quarter in WYCOMBE Volume 03A Page 289
Deaths Jun 1880 (>99%)
WELLER Robert Newton 17 Wycombe 3a 304