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Hello again, this thread may not be visible anymore but it is worth a shot. I came across and old document AN agreeement regarding the disposal of James Kellys belonging dated I think 1844. We already know that James Kelly born 1776 married Janet Whitecross and started his family in Whitekirk : James 1802, Anne 1802, John 1805, Peter 1807, james kelly 1810, Richard 1812 & Janet Kelly. We know that Two Kelly sons married two Hogg sisters. The agreement states: "witnessed by two sons : James & John Kelly and sons in law John Hogg, John Hagar & Alexander Hogg Forthwith Elizabeth Hogg and Margaret Hogg and Janet Hagar it is left to do what thinks proper with the things that belonged to their mother. I went down a rabbit hole with this one as their are too many intertwined Kellys and Hoggs. They all moved and resided in their own Little community in Canty Bay which I have the census to.

I sincerely thank you, I hope you don't mind but I have mentioned you as a great source of help in my the book.

My Dad started the research but sadly died, then I got cancer and thought I had better finish what he had started .

With this community's help, I am very nearly there :)

Sadly, we all have dead ends or brick walls in our trees, beyond which we can't progress.
It's frustrating when the trail peters out - but can't be helped.

Good luck with the book!

OK thank you for your help. I have been looking on Scotlands people and other web sites for Alexander Hogg and John Hagar myself over the last month but if I hit a brick wall with my limited knowledge, usually you fine, experienced people can find an answer. I'm so sorry if you feel that I am asking too much. As always I very much appreciate your input and thank you for your efforts.

James Kelly 1776:

(Probably already posted) - Yes, at least twice before!

James Kelly
in the 1841 Scotland Census
Name James Kelly
Age 65
Estimated Birth Year abt 1776
Gender Male
Where born East Lothian, Scotland
Civil parish North Berwick
County East Lothian
Address Cantybay
Occupation Fisher M
Parish Number 713
Household Members (Name) Age
James Kelly 65
Richard Kelly 30
Mary Kelly 30 [ Richard's wife - nee Davidson ]
James Kelly 5
Ellen Kelly 3
Isabellia Kelly 1
Robert Kelly 25


I don't see Janet Whitecross/Kelly's death.



Re your last paragraph above:

John Kelly married Elisabeth Hogg in 1829 in North Berwick parish.


As for sorting out all the family connections in the area, that's more than you can reasonably ask - and may not be possible at all.
All those surnames (and first names) were very common in the area, and all the families would have intermarried frequently.
Add to that the fact that not every child was baptised - for instance, I don't see the baptisms of Ella or Isabella in the 1841 census above - and other types of records are similarly incomplete, or no longer exist, and the whole thing becomes impossible.

Thomas Sked -
the 1851 census you mention is on page 2, and posted on 29 Aug 2023 @ 17:55 (for reference.)
You wonder who his father was - did you not look at the 1841 census?

Thomas Sked
in the 1841 Scotland Census
Name Thomas Sked
Age 15
Estimated Birth Year abt 1826
Gender Male
Where born East Lothian, Scotland
Civil parish North Berwick
County East Lothian
Address High Street
Occupation Blacksmith App
Parish Number 713
Household Members (Name) Age
Alexander Sked 49 <<<<<<<
Ann Sked 45
Alexander Sked 20
Thomas Sked 15
Elisabeth Sked 15
George Sked 14
Mary Sked 12
Peter Sked 10
Robert Sked 8

(Alison in 1851 is called Ann in 1841 - but she's the same person.)

Alexander & Alison's marriage:

SKED
ALEXANDER
ALISON BOOKLESS/FR1225 (FR1225)
24/04/1818
706
50 / 236
Dunbar


Thomas Sked married Margaret Crawford, and had a daughter named Alison Bookless (Booklas) Sked in 1861, a son Alexander in 1854, a daughter Mary in 1868.
The family lived in Glasgow.

Seems to me that you once again asking a lot of folk.

Have you not checked Scotlands People yourself for a James Kelly birth in Aberlady?

I don’t understand the last part of the second para.. If James predeceased his wife Janet Whitecross why would he need someone (Catrene Learmouth) to keep house for him?

Added: how are you keeping all this information? Software programs are very useful as they can highlight things you haven’t spotted and you can make.various lists and order your results on a way that suits you. As well as paying for the programs there are free ones out there.

After a very Successful trip to North Berwick. I have been checking and double checking the authenticity of my family tree. Argyll Gran you absolutely got the Sked Family correct as Fathering Janet Sked, as I found a document requesting payment for female child born to Elizabeth Kelly in 1847. Thomas Sked did not pay anything until 1850. The 1851 census you found, had him at age 27. Living with his mother Alison, not sure who his Dad was ? his siblings and a granddaughter Agnes Brodie - Not sure which sibling she belonged to.

I was given a volume written by Edgar Evans past owner of the cottages of Canty Bay in the 1920s regarding James Kelly born 1776 who was married to Janet Whitecross ( Can anyone see when she died ?) who we have already shown as stemming from White Kirk and then on to Canty Bay. We did visit the church in White Kirk but ALL documents were burnt by the suffrogettes. This document stated James Kelly was an East Lothian Man coming from Aberlady? This has thrown a spanner in the works a wee bit. Apparently James Kelly born 1776 ish predeceased his wife Janet Whitecross , so had a woman Catrene Learmonth keep house for him?

We always knew that two Kelly Brothers James & John married to Hogg sisters - Janet & Elizabeth, but this document also mentioned that two Hogg brothers Alexander and John married to Kelly Sisters also Janet and Elizabeth?. I think this is confused, although a written agreement - Disposal of James Kelly's affects which is supposed to be dated Jan 4th 1844 but I think in could be 1841. This shows- signed by two sons: James & John Kelly and two Son in Laws- which looks like John Hagar and Alexander Hogg. I can't make out the old written words but the women that are included seem to be: Elizabeth Hogg, Margaret Hogg and Maybe Janet Hagar. There was a Peter Whitecross resident in one of the cottages of Canty Bay which I can only assume was a relative to Janet Kelly nee Whitecross from White Kirk. If anyone can hep me decipher this very closed knot community from White Kirk or Aberlady ? I would very much appreciate it

Thank you all so much :)

St Mary's Church in Whitekirk was closed in 2021, and subsequently has been sold by the Church of Scotland to Whitekirk New Life Trust:


https://whitekirkchurch.org.uk/about#403b9678-0b38-4820-8f1d-0e9b49774432

Before it was sold it was part of the Parish of Traprain.
Parish minister's contact details:

Rev Douglas Hamilton can be contacted on 07831 657854, e-mail: [email protected]
https://www.parishoftraprain.org.uk/

Records are not kept at the church, but I assume people can still visit the graveyard.

https://tinyurl.com/29vau4a3


EDIT: Re visiting the graveyard, there are no Kelly gravestones existing at Whitekirk.
https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2532530/whitekirk-churchyard

I repeat (at least I think I said already) that Isabellia and Ellen Kelly, because of their ages and the way the names are listed in 1841, are almost certainly children of Richard and Mary.

Posting 1841 yet again:

Richard Kelly
in the 1841 Scotland Census
Name Richard Kelly
Age 30
Estimated Birth Year abt 1811
Gender Male
Where born East Lothian, Scotland
Civil parish North Berwick
County East Lothian
Address Cantybay
Parish Number 713
Household Members (Name) Age
James Kelly 65
Richard Kelly 30
Mary Kelly 30
James Kelly 5
Ellen Kelly 3
Isabellia Kelly 1
Robert Kelly 25


As there is no existing baptism record for either Ellen or Isabellia, we can't prove it, but if it were my family, I would believe it to be true.


Haddington is a TOWN in East Lothian.
East Lothian was called Haddingtonshire until 1921.

Canty Bay is near North Berwick, about 13 miles away from Haddington.

The Haddington family are not in Canty Bay.

Kelly is a very common name.
There is no reason to assume that the family in Haddington is (or isn't) necessarily related to the family in Canty Bay.

There were a limited and oft-repeated selection of first names used in Scotland in those days - and there's also the naming pattern tradition.

You must do whatever you feel necessary to find the info you need for yourself.
Good luck

Are you aware of the Scottish naming pattern - have a read of these articles -

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/blog/help/traditional-scottish-naming-patterns

https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/guides/research-guides/forenames

It could well mean that the children of two brothers/sisters might well have very similar names - especially if brothers married sisters! Or could appear very similar if they are children of cousins.

In answer to the question at the start of the last post.

You use every resourse - if that means visiting then do so, if that means newspapers - read them. If that means local records office research their holdings - I could go on.

I would really like to find out about James Kelly living in WhiteKirk Marrying Janet Whitecross. Do I visit church / Graveyard in Whitekirk? Newspapers ? I realise that there are no census etc

1841 Census:
James Kelly ( Head) abt 1776 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian Age 65
Son - Richard Kelly abt 1811 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian Age 30
Dau in law Mary Kelly nee Davidson abt 1811 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian Age 30
Robert Kelly abt 1816 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian Age 25 - THIS ROBERT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE SON OF JAMES AND JANET WHITECROSS ?
James Kelly abt 1836 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian Age 5
WE NOW KNOW THIS JAMES KELLY BELONGS TO RICHARD & MARY

Ellen Kelly abt 1838 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian Age 3
Isabellia Kelly abt 1840 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian Age1
DO THESE GIRLS BELONG TO RICHARD OR ROBERT?

I've realised Haddington is a county, so when address states Haddington could it be Canty Bay? The Kelly Family in Haddington have very similar names

This confused me :
Parish 709
Address Haddington
Janet Kelly abt 1811 East Lothian, Scotland Haddington East Lothian 30
John Kelly abt 1811 East Lothian, Scotland Haddington East Lothian 30
Helen Kelly abt 1830 East Lothian, Scotland Haddington East Lothian 11
John Kelly abt 1833 East Lothian, Scotland Haddington East Lothian 8
Robert Kelly abt 1836 East Lothian, Scotland Haddington East Lothian 5
Peter Kelly abt 1838 East Lothian, Scotland Haddington East Lothian 3
James Kelly abt 1840 East Lothian, Scotland Haddington East Lothian 1
Margaret Yount abt 1841 East Lothian, Scotland Haddington East Lothian 0
AND HOW DOES THIS KELLY FAMILY in HADDINGTON CONNECT TO MY KELLY CANTY BAY FAMILY. The names are very similar
County East Lothian
Place North Berwick
Church North Berwick Parish Church
Register Number
Date Of Birth 22 Jul 1773
Baptism Date 25 Aug 1773
Forename James
Sex M
Father Forename James
Mother Forename Hellen
Father Surname KELLY
Mother Surname COMB
Abode
Father Occupation fisher
Notes Wts Alexr Mitchell Thomas T** Sponsor Alexr Comb File Number 22509

Thank you Grey Ghost

Thank you Argyll Gran -

"
I do not know who Robert is or who the three children belong to." (ie - James, Ellen and Isabellia)"

I posted James's baptism today at 10:53 - definitely the son of Richard and Mary.

Thanks to you guys I have made great progress with my family tree.

I was told that the head of my family tree was James Kelly born 1801 in White Kirk.

The next generation up seems to be James Kelly who married Janet Whitecross in White Kirk.

So I have deduced that the family lived in Canty Bay

1841 Scottish Census
Parish Number 731

Address Canty Bay - Occupation Fisherman Ages
James Kelly abt 1801 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian 40
Janet Kelly nee Hogg abt 1811 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian 30
Elizabeth Kelly abt 1824 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian 17
John Kelly abt 1826 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian 15
Janet Kelly abt 1828 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian 13
Cathraine Kelly abt 1831 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian 10
Mary Kelly abt 1833 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian 8
Margaret Kelly abt 1835 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian 6
George Kelly abt 1837 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian 5

Address Canty Bay - Occupation Fisherman

Elizabeth Kelly nee Hogg abt 1806 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian 35
John Kelly abt 1811 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian 30
Janet Kelly abt 1831 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian 10
James Kelly abt 1836 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian 5
Elizabeth Kelly abt 1838 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian 3

SO TWO KELLY BROTHERS MARRYING TO HOGG SISTERS

Address Canty Bay - Occupation Fisherman

I am Presuming the head of the family James Kelly born 1776 who was married to Janet Whitecross is here living with his son Richard Kelly who married Mary Davidson

James Kelly ( Head) abt 1776 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian Age 65
Son - Richard Kelly abt 1811 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian Age 30
Dau in law Mary Kelly nee Davidson abt 1811 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian Age 30
Robert Kelly abt 1816 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian Age 25
James Kelly abt 1836 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian Age 5
Ellen Kelly abt 1838 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian Age 3
Isabellia Kelly abt 1840 East Lothian, Scotland North Berwick East Lothian Age1

I do not know who Robert is or who the three children belong to.

This confused me :
Parish 709
Address Haddington
Janet Kelly abt 1811 East Lothian, Scotland Haddington East Lothian 30
John Kelly abt 1811 East Lothian, Scotland Haddington East Lothian 30
Helen Kelly abt 1830 East Lothian, Scotland Haddington East Lothian 11
John Kelly abt 1833 East Lothian, Scotland Haddington East Lothian 8
Robert Kelly abt 1836 East Lothian, Scotland Haddington East Lothian 5
Peter Kelly abt 1838 East Lothian, Scotland Haddington East Lothian 3
James Kelly abt 1840 East Lothian, Scotland Haddington East Lothian 1
Margaret Yount abt 1841 East Lothian, Scotland Haddington East Lothian 0
AND HOW DOES THIS FAMILY CONNECT TO MW
In which case this would be his birth showing his parents

County East Lothian
Place North Berwick
Church North Berwick Parish Church
Register Number
Date Of Birth 22 Jul 1773
Baptism Date 25 Aug 1773
Forename James
Sex M
Father Forename James
Mother Forename Hellen
Father Surname KELLY
Mother Surname COMB
Abode
Father Occupation fisher
Notes Wts Alexr Mitchell Thomas T** Sponsor Alexr Comb File Number 22509

Re James 1802 -

I thought that perhaps he was baptised hastily if a sickly child, and I therefore had a look at the image on SP.

Interestingly, his baptism is part-way down a page of 1805 baptisms.

The record says his birth was 3 June 1802.
The date of baptism is immediately below, and it just says the date was the 10th (no month or year specified), which has made the transcriber assume the baptism was on 10 June 1802.

But as it's in the middle of a list of 1805 baptisms, perhaps it means 10 June 1805.

EDIT:
On closer inspection, although the baptisms on that page are all 1805, they're not listed chronologically.


ADDED:
John 1805's baptism is on the same page.
He was born on 25 Jan 1805, and baptised 6 Feb 1805.