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I've been doing my tree for years but I always come back to my Gran
Catherine Kelly I've not been able to find her birth or her 2 siblings

John Kelly 1882 Manchester
Catherine Kelly 1884 Manchester
Annie Kelly 1888 Manchester

Their parents were James Kelly and Catherine Fox who married 16 Oct 1882 Chorlton Manchester , Got the 1891 census which has them on and I've been able to go on from there but I always come back to why can't I find Their births They did have another sister Mary 1899 I've got her birth

Thank you

Where have you looked?

Have you posted about this before?

I've looked on GRO not sure about posting before I've gone over my past posts couldn't see it

on GRO + others On GRO their is one for John no mothers name and born before the marriage I've got ??
Catherine MMN Kelly ??
Annie no MMN

Could these be the ones ? I want to send for birth certificate

Get the PDF’s - they’re cheaper

If John was born before the marriage his name would have been Fox

I assume you have your grandmother’s marriage cert, which names James as her father?

Yes I was thinking of that BUT you've always said if the MMN isn't on they were Illegitimate ? so yes John could be right as he was born before they married but Catherine and Annie they were married?
so do you think these could be them? and would it have the MMN

Normally, if there's no mmn, it means the birth was illegitimate, and the child's name WAS the mmn.

However,there's always the possibility that the unmarried mother lied, or misunderstood the registrar's questions, or possibly the registrar misunderstood the mother's answers.

Was Catherine Fox a spinster at marriage to James Kelly, or was her maiden name something other than Fox?

As ErikaH has asked - do you have your grandmother's birth cert to be sure of her father's name?
Or else her marriage cert?

For our reference -

Mary's birth:

KELLY, MARY mmn FOX
GRO Reference: 1898 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 256

and in 1901:

Mary Kelly
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Mary Kelly
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1899
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Father: James Kelly
Mother: Catherine Kelly
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: South Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address:
Registration District: Chorlton
Sub-registration District: Chorlton upon Medlock
ED, institution, or vessel: 05
Neighbors:
Piece: 3693
Folio: 79
Page Number: 11
Household Schedule Number: 66
Household Members:
Name Age
James Kelly 37 - Manchester, general labourer
Catherine Kelly 36 - Manchester, living on own means
John Kelly 19 - Manchester
Mary Kelly 2



John Kelly
in the 1891 England Census
Name: John Kelly
Gender: Male
Age: 9
Relationship: Son
Birth Year: 1882
Father: James Kelly
Mother: Catherine Kelly
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Chorlton on Medlock
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
Residence Place: Manchester, Chorlton on Medlock, Lancashire, England
Registration District: Chorlton
Sub registration district: Chorlton upon Medlock
ED, Institution or Vessel: 36
Neighbors:
Piece: 3186
Folio: 143
Household Members:
Name Age
James Kelly 35 - Master M [mariner ??]
Catherine Kelly 32
John Kelly 9
Catherine Kelly 7
Annie Kelly 2
William Goffe 39 - lodger
Edward Goffe 11
Mary H Goffe 15


Are you quite sure that's the same family in 1891 and 1901?
The parents' ages don't match, and James seems to have gone from being a Master M[ariner?] to a general labourer.

You haven’t said if you’ve got Catherine’s marriage cert. Who, when, where did she marry?

there is also this
James
Last name Kelly
Birth year 1887
Birth quarter 4
Registration month -
Mother's maiden name Fox
District Chorlton
County Lancashire
Country England
Volume 8C
Page 797 but not un 1891 cesus above

In 1901, there are three families at No 11 - one of them is a widow, Annie Fox and her two children. Possibly related, although not relevant to the specific enquiry on this thread.

I find it odd that Catherine is ‘living on own means’ with a hubby who is a general labourer

Just in case young Catherine and Annie in 1891 are not your family - (or even if they are)

???
Katie Kelly
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Katie Kelly
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1886
Relation to Head: Inmate
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Tottington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Anne
Town: Tottington
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: Holly Mount Poor Law School
Registration District: Bury
Sub-registration District: Tottington
ED, institution, or vessel: Holly Mount
Neighbors:
Piece: 3635
Folio: 128
Page Number: 5
Household Schedule Number: 1
Household Members:
Name Age
Annie Kelly 13 - Manchester, attending school
Katie Kelly 15 - Manchester, dressmaking

(and many others)


Have you found young Catherine or Annie anywhere else in 1901?

I think I've seen the1901 census before for Annie and yes it is her don't know why she was sent there but it has been spoken about in the family
I have got Catherine's Marriage certificate her father was James Joseph Kelly
and I have the marriage for James and Catherine Fox
Not sure why Joseph is in one marriage and not the other ? the only thing I've come up with Catherine James Daughter married a Joseph Turner so thinking the curate got confused ??
Yes That is Mary's birth

Back to the birth which one do you think will tell me what I want to know Parents names where they were living
John born before they married
Catherine mothers name Kelly
Annie no MMN
But the dates seem right

I've taken he plunge and ordered the one for John fingers crossed

Every birth cert has the mother's name - at least - and the address at which the birth occurred.

'Master M' could also be Master Mason.

Sylann

What was the father's occupation said to be on Catherine's marriage cert?

Who were the witnesses?

1911 shows Catherine's birth to be later than you suggest, but she could have been lying as her husband would have been somewhat younger than her.
When did she die?

Name: Catherine Turner
Age in 1911: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: South Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 23 Whitfield St C On M Manchester
Marital status: Married
Registration District: Chorlton
Registration District Number: 464
Sub-registration District: Chorlton upon Medlock
ED, institution, or vessel: 03
Piece: 23831
Household Members:
Name Age
Joseph Turner 23
Catherine Turner 23
Annie Turner 2
Martha Turner 5/12
John W Turner 19
Martha Nurstney 19

Name: Catherine Jones
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 28 Jul 1885*************************************
Residence Place: Chorlton
Relation to Soldier: Widow
Title: WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
Description: Other Ranks Died Turner J-Turner W
Next of Kin:
Name Relation to Soldier
Joseph Turner
Catherine Jones Widow
Annie Turner Child Birth Date: 14 Feb 1909
Joseph Turner Children Birth Date: 9 Jan 1914
Catherine Schina Children Birth Date: 23 Jan 1917



PRIVATE
JOSEPH TURNER
Service Number: 36348
Regiment & Unit/Ship
Lancashire Fusiliers 9th Bn.
Date of Death04 October 1917
Age 28 years
Buried or commemorated at
TYNE COT MEMORIAL
Panel 54 to 60.
Belgium
Country of Service
United Kingdom
Additional Info
Husband of Catherine Turner, of 10, Rosamond Place, Brook St., Chorlton-on-Medlock, Manchester.

Another different birth year - and younger husband

1939

Name: Catherine Jones
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Married
Birth Date: 28/07/1886 (28 Jul 1886)
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 58
Residence Place: Manchester Lancashire England
Occupation: Unpaid Domestic Duties
Line Number: 33
Schedule Number: 161
Sub Schedule Number: 2
Enumeration District: NJFA
Borough: Manchester
Registration district: 464-1
Inferred Spouse:
Sidney Jones Birth Date: 31/07/1887 (31 Jul 1887)


JONES Sidney KELLY Catherine 1920 Chorlton-on-Medlock Register Office or Registrar Attended Archives+, Manchester Central Library CHO_RM/285/168
JONES Sidney TURNER Catherine 1920 Chorlton-on-Medlock Register Office or Registrar Attended Archives+, Manchester Central Library CHO_RM/285/168
KELLY Catherine JONES Sidney 1920 Chorlton-on-Medlock Register Office or Registrar Attended Archives+, Manchester Central Library CHO_RM/285/168
TURNER Catherine JONES Sidney 1920 Chorlton-on-Medlock Register Office or Registrar Attended Archives+, Manchester Central Library CHO_RM/285/168

is this catherine

1939 Register logo
The National Archives logo
Catherine Jones's life in 1939
58 Panfield Road, Manchester, Manchester C.B., Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
Sidney Jones 31 Jul 1887 Male Painter & Decorator Married 161 1
Catherine Jones 28 Jul 1886 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 161 2

Catherine
Last name Turner
Marriage quarter 3
Marriage year 1920
Registration month -
Sidney Jones
Spouse's last name Jones
District Chorlton

Right
Yes That is Catherine she Married Joseph Turner the ages have always got us changing as you say Joseph seemed to be younger so may be she altered her birth
And yes she married Sydney Jones and that 1939 census is her she lived there until she died in 1966, I was only young so I didn't know her birth date.

And more bad news I sent for the birth for John 1882 Catherines brother just got it and it's not him his mother is Agnes Kelly,

I was brought up thinking Catherine was born in Co. Mayo but the censuses say Manchester but it makes me think not being able to pin point her birth

You haven't yet answered my question about her father's occupation on her marriage cert - and the witnesses

The only census anyone can positively say (at the moment) is the right woman is 1911 - after her marriage