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Thanks for checking that, but for some reason it was the actual gro site I couldn’t get into. For two days every time I tried to open it it just told me there was an error. I’ve just tried it now after reading your post and it seems to be okay. I’ve no idea what the problem was but it seems to be okay now. They are still working but much slower than usual. I ordered a certificate in PDF a while ago and I’m still waiting ... they’re usually pretty quick.

Births Mar 1846
Guest Frances Amelia Manchester 20 813

You should be able to order via the GRO site now, quoting the reference above.

As an experiment I've gone through the order process for Frances's birth cert, right up to where I would have had to pay, and there was nothing to suggest that I wouldn't have been able to place the order.

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/app_select.asp


Scottish certs on SP are not obtainable during this lockdown period, but English and Welsh ones on GRO seem unaffected.

I guess I hadn't looked closely enough at that, it does make sense. Certificate seems the way to go, when the lock down is over. I can't even get on the gro site now to check on an order I placed before the lock down … hopefully this craziness will end soon.

Thanks.

hi yvonne

????

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1846
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Year Sub-District Registers At Reference
GUEST Frances Amelia GUEST 1846 Market Street Archives+, Manchester Central Library MST/16/18

frances guest i think is elizabeths child as she is born a guest
if she was johns child i think she would of been registered craig not guest
and john took her on when he married elizabeth guest

after lock down is over buy the birth cert

Going through all this info, just wanted to check something. Safc, you found the marriage of John Craig to Elizabeth Guest in 1949 but birth of daughter Frances was in 1846, so is that possible/probable? Everything else seems to fit.

I think I tend to agree with you as neither occupation really works ... John was always down as a brass founder.

For our reference:

John Craig
in the 1891 England Census
Name: John Craig
Gender: Male
Age: 64
Relationship: Pauper
Birth Year: 1827
Birth Place: Liverpool
Civil Parish: Walton
Ecclesiastical parish: Walton St Mary
Residence Place: Walton, Walton, Lancashire, England
Registration district: West Derby
Sub registration district: Walton
ED, Institution or Vessel: West Derby Union Workhouse (1)
Neighbors:
Piece: 2981
Folio: 50
Household Members:
Name Age

John Craig 64 - pauper, carter
John Craig 61 - pauper, general labourer
(and many other paupers)


I would be inclined to think that neither of these is your man, as both were apparently born in Liverpool.
On the other hand, I can't see either of them convincingly in 1881.

Sorry, couldn't find John in the institution in 1881 because I got it wrong - it was in the 1891 census, not 1881. There is a John Craig, widower, general labourer age 64 and a John Craig, widower, carter, age 61, both born in Liverpool. Looks like it's the workhouse.

Thank you all so much, so much to go through.
I didn't make a note of where I found John in an institution - silly me - and now I can't find him. I do remember that there were two John Craig's there though. I'll keep looking.

Not necessarily, Maddie. [ EDIT: - but looks like I could be wrong! ]

I know the children's ages are roughly the same, but the father of that family is a Cotton Yarn Winder - not a bootmaker or shoemaker.


As an alternative for Janet and Archibald in 1841, there's this family:

Mrs. Christina Craig
in the 1851 Scotland Census
Name: Mrs. Christina Craig
Age: 56
Estimated birth year: abt 1795
Relationship: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Leven, Dumbartonshire
Parish Number: 622
Civil Parish: Barony
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 21 Catherine St
Occupation: Dressmaker
ED: 23A
Page: 4
Household schedule number: 11
Line: 3
Roll: CSSCT1851_142
Household Members:
Name Age
Mrs. Christina Craig 56
Janet Craig 26 - dressmaker
Archa Craig 20 - clerk, bonded and free stores

Barony is where John and Christian/Christina were married, and not far from the Gorbals.

[No, sorry, that's 1851, not 1841 - and it says Archibald was born in Govan.]


Just for the record - though it doesn't prove anything one way or the other - here are that Janet and Archibald in 1861. Jessie is a common diminutive of Janet:

Jessie Craig
in the 1861 Scotland Census
Name: Jessie Craig
Age: 36
Estimated birth year: abt 1825
Relationship: Sister
Gender: Female
Where born: Glasgow, Lanark
Registration Number: 644/8
Registration district: Anderston
Civil Parish: Glasgow Barony
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 20 Dumbarton Rd
Occupation: Dressmaker
ED: 72
Household schedule number: 44
Line: 16
Roll: CSSCT1861_109
Household Members:
Name Age
Archd Craig 30 - Govan, clerk ("communion" trade )
Jessie Craig 36

rules out the son of john and christian

1841
Name: John Craig
Age: 45
Estimated birth year: abt 1796
Where born: Lanarkshire, Scotland
Civil Parish: Govan
County: Lanarkshire
Address: Old Toll Road
Occupation: Cotton Gam Winder
Parish Number: 646
Household Members:
Name Age
John Craig 45
Janet Craig 15
John Craig 13---- mary shop boy
Archibald Craig 10

is this wife elizabeth
Name: Elizabeth Craig
Estimated birth year: abt 1825
Registration Year: 1875
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 50
Registration district: Liverpool
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 128

Yvonne -
you mentioned a John in an institution in 1881.


Where was that, please? I can't find it.

the wedding record says father john is a bootmaker
so a maybe

Record Transcription:
1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census

8, Stormont Street, St Enochs,Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland

Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
John Craig Head Married Male 54 1797 Master Boot & Shoemaker Empg 4 Men Dunkeld, Perthshire, Scotland
Alison Craig Wife Married Female 50 1801 Toy Merchant At Home Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
Catherine Carrick Step Daughter Unmarried Female 14 1837 Scholar Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
Alison Carrick Step Daughter - Female 10 1841 Scholar Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Cathedral Street, Saint David, Glasgow Central, Lanarkshire, Scotland

Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
John Craig Head Married Male 64 1797 Bootmaker Employing 1 Man Dunkeld, Perthshire, Scotland
Alison Craig Wife Married Female 59 1802 - Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
Catherine Carrick Step Daughter Unmarried Female 24 1837 Dressmaker Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
Allison Carrick Step Daughter Unmarried Female 20 1841 Woolen Draper's Saleswoman Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
Margaret Craig Grand Daughter - Female 9 1852 Scholar Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
James Calder Boarder Unmarried Male 26 1835 Assit In Cloth Warehouse Tillicoultry, Clackmannanshire, Scotland
John Wishart Boarder Unmarried Male 23 1838 Assistant Surgeon Dentist Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
Helen Hardy Servant Unmarried Female 27 1834 Domestic Servant England

Name: Catherine Carrick
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 3 Mar 1837
Baptism Place: , Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Father: John Carrick
Mother: Allison Paterson
FHL Film Number: 0102919, 0102920, 0994180, 0994181, 1042939, 0102918

Scotland, Glasgow & Lanarkshire Death & Burial Index
First name(s) John
Last name Carrick
Burial year 1842
Birth year 1795
Death year 1842
County Lanarkshire

Other children born in the Gorbals with parents' names John Craig and Christian/Christina Walker:

Archibald 1830
Robert 1827
Janet 1823

or
Name: John Craig
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 11 Apr 1825
Baptism Date: 24 Apr 1825
Baptism Place: Gorbals,Lanark,Scotland
Father: John Craig
Mother: Christian Walker
FHL Film Number: 102945

Name: John Craig
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 7 Sep 1826
Baptism Date: 24 Sep 1826
Baptism Place: , East Kilbride, Lanark, Scotland
Father: John Craig
Mother: Mary Fleming
FHL Film Number: 1066591
Reference ID: 2:16KCR0N

John
Last name Craig
Marriage year 1822
Marriage date 23 Jun 1822
Marriage place Barony,Lanark,Scotland
Spouse's first name(s) Christian
Spouse's last name Walker
Place Barony, Glasgow
County Lanarkshire
Country Scotland
Record set Scotland Marriages 1561-1910

I think the possible births posted by safc are too early (or late).

There's this one:

CRAIG
JOHN
JOHN CRAIG/CHRISTIAN WALKER FR751 (FR751)
M
24/04/1825
644/2
40 111
Gorbals

Possibly John in 1841: [EDIT: Snap, Maddie! ]


Jno Craig
in the 1841 Scotland Census
Name: Jno Craig
Age: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1826
Gender: Male
Where born: Lanarkshire, Scotland
Civil Parish: Gorbals
County: Lanarkshire
Address: Hospital St
Occupation: Brass Founde Ap[prentice] <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Parish Number: 644/2
Household Members:
Name Age
Jno McDearmid 50
Cathrine McDearmid 32
Cathrine McDearmid 7
Hugh McDearmid 4
Jno McDearmid 2 Mo
Duncan Colguhoan 20
Jno Craig 15

Yvonne

As previously advised, use the GRO site for MMN pre-1911

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp

Bookmark it.......................................

Name: Jno Craig
Age: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1826
Gender: Male
Where born: Lanarkshire, Scotland
Civil Parish: Gorbals
County: Lanarkshire
Address: Hospital St
Occupation: Brass Founde Ap ----------------
Parish Number: 644/2
Household Members:
Name Age
Jno McDearmid 50
Cathrine McDearmid 32
Cathrine McDearmid 7
Hugh McDearmid 4
Jno McDearmid 2 Mo
Duncan Colguhoan 20
Jno Craig 15