Find Ancestors

Thank to all . Passing all the information on. Will see what he intends to do .He may try for himself now

Probably not Flip - it was just a thought about Scotland as I was getting desperate ;-) :-D

I DO believe we have the correct Elizabeth though, especially having found the 1891 with them both together on it.

Dea x

It's a possibility Dea, but what about the sister - would they be likely to go back to Scotland for that as well?

Think Elizabeth's marriage cert is a must to see if we even have the right people here.

Just a thought..............

Elizabeth is unmarried and on the 1891 there is no actual place of birth noted for James.

Also, James is down as the son of Elizabeth's mother - Jane ?

I know this often happens but if they were trying at that stage to 'pass him off' as Jane's - they would obviously not want people to know about the birth.

I note that there is a Scottish connection (Jane and her family) - Is it possible that Jane and Elizabeth took themselves off to family in Scotland for the birth so that they could come back and claim he was Jane's ?

Perhaps there might be a birth reg in Scotland for him?

Dea x

Birth
Name: GILLMAN, William
Registration district: [?] West Ham
County: Essex
Year of registration: 1890
Quarter of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Mother's maiden name: Not available before 1911 Q3
Volume no:[?]4A
Page no:[?]25


Births Mar 1890 (>99%) ?
------------------------------------------------
Gillmore William W. Ham 4a 25

(not sure of above)

Chris :)

(orf'' now folks, have a good day, see ya later)

Well found Dea :-D

So, it looks like no father around if we've got the right Elizabeth. Still no sign of a birth registration though, even for plain James Gillman or variations on the surname.

Added - no birth for sister either. The only possibility was in Whitehaven, but she is still there in 1901 so can be eliminated.

AT LAST !!!

1891 census transcription details for: 7, Poplar Street, Canning Town, West Ham
Print Close

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG12
Piece: 1319
Folio: 85
Page: 22
Reg. District: West Ham
Sub District: West Ham
Parish: Canning Town
Enum. District: 16
Ecclesiastical District: St Lukes
City/Municipal Borough: West Ham
Address: 7, Poplar Street, Canning Town, West Ham
County: Essex
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
GILLEN, Jane Head Widow F 47 1844 Charwoman
Scotland
GILLEN, Wm Son Single M 25 1866

****GILLEN, Ely Daughter Single F 23 1868 Servant
West Ham
GILLEN, Wm Son Single M 17 1874 Labourer
West Ham
GILLEN, Agnes Daughter Single F 15 1876 Needle Girl
West Ham
GILLEN, Jane Daughter Single F 13 1878
West Ham
****GILLEN, James Son Single M 1 (12M) 1890


Dea x

WAS JAMES MOTHER MARRIED WHEN HE WAS BORN
CANT FIND HIM :-)

Looks like that cert is a 'must have'

Dea x

Problem is he may not have known father's name.

Wonder if the marriage between William Angell/Elizabeth Gillman would reveal her fathers name so we could look under her maiden name for a birth or previous marriage. She may not have been married as there's this one of the right age, right area (but no luck finding them in 1891 yet):

Elizabeth Gillman
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William Gillman
Mother's name: Jane Gillman
Gender: Female
Where born: West Ham, Essex, England

Civil parish: West Ham
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

Street Address: 51 Hemsworth Street
Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: West Ham
Sub-registration district: West Ham
ED, institution, or vessel: 13a
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1713
Folio: 39
Page Number: 55
Household Members: Name Age
William Gillman 45
Jane Gillman 37
Charles Gillman 15
Elizabeth Gillman 12
Sarah A. Gillman 10
William Gillman 7
Agnes Gillman 5
Jane Gillman 3
Rosa Thurston 70
James Thurston 38

Chris Ho :)

Could well be

No not at the moment Just the entry 1914 Dec Qtr West Ham 4a 362. May have to get it

Do you have the 1914 marriage certificate for his fathers name?

Strange, but no birth I can see for him or his sister Mary Ann, at least not under the name Gillman.

Wonder if they were registered under another name and assumed Gillman if the mother re-married after their births??

DIZZI

Thanks for that . Downloaded and printed for my friend

1911
BROWN, Charlotte Head Widow F 59 1852 Own Housework Bham County Warwick
DREW, Charles Son Single M 38 1873 Comedien Bham County Warwick
HUNT, Walter Boarder Single M 32 1879 Brassfounder Bham County Warwick
WILDEN, Mary E Boarder Married F 40 1871 Lacquerer Buckinghamshire
WESTON, Henry Boarder Single M 33 1878 Assisting In Business Bham County Warwick
ANGEL, William Boarder Single M 20 1891 Fitter London Essex
RG number: RG14
Piece: 18058
Reference: RG14PN18058 RG78PN1096 RD384 SD2 ED26 SN43
Registration District: Birmingham
Sub District: All Saints
Enumeration District: 26
Parish: Birmingham
Address: 183 New John Street West Birmingham
County: Warwickshire

(not sure if William from 1901 above, his name is written and crossed through on 1911 image)

Chris :)

SENT IMAGE :-\

Thanks
As change of name and listed as son Looks like William adopted him and his sister. Still need his birth

about James Angel
Name: James Angel
Age in 1911: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Canning Town, Essex
Civil parish: West Ham
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street Address: 58 Jersey Road, Custom House
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Labourer Docks
Registration district: West Ham
Registration District Number: 188
Sub-registration district: Canning Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Household schedule number: 122
Piece: 9487
Household Members:
Name Age
William Angel 45
Elizabeth Angel 44
James Angel 21
Mary Angel 17
Louisa Angel 10
John Angel 5
Nellie Angel 3

1901 (reference)
ANGELL, William Head Married M 41 1860 Tank Rivetter
West Ham Canning Town
ANGELL, Elizabeth Wife Married F 32 1869
West Ham Canning Town
GILLMAN, James Step Son M 11 1890
West Ham Canning Town
ANGELL, William Son M 9 1892
West Ham Canning Town
GILLMAN, Mary Ann Step Daughter F 7 1894
West Ham Canning Town
RATTENBURY, Edward Boarder Widower M 71 1830
Devonshire
Piece: 1582
Folio: 109
Page: 3
Registration District: West Ham
Civil Parish: West Ham
Municipal Borough:
Address: 20, George Street, West Ham
County: Essex

Chris :)

Marriages Jun 1900 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------
Angell William W. Ham 4a 325
Gillman Elizabeth W. Ham 4a 325