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I wonder if someone could give me some advice on how to go about tracing two of my ancestors who spent some time in prison.

The first is my maternal grandfather, Jeremiah Barry. I haven't been able to find a birth certificate for him and there is some doubt as to whether he was born here or in Ireland. His father was Irish and I know that he was here before Jeremiah was born and I have also found Jeremiah on the 1891 census in Poplar, London, stated as being 8 years old. I also know from family stories that he spent 1 year in prison for attacking an army officer. This would have been after 1907, as my aunt, who was born that year, said that she was taken to court by her mother to plead for him not being given the death penalty by firing squad. Knowing that he had spent time in prison, I recently came upon the Old Bailey online. I thought I would search for his name, not thinking that I would actually find something, but I did. I found a trial at the Old Bailey on 26th June 1905 for a violent theft/robbery. The defendents were 3 people, one of which was Jeremiah Barry aged 26. Going by the 1891 census, Jeremiah would have been 22 then, but there are too many coincidences. Firstly, Jeremiah was a docker and in the transcript of the trial, the men say that they were waiting where the ships come in to unload coal. Also, it is in the area of Ratcliffe, which was around about Wapping. My family, came from the Isle of Dogs, which is very close. The paperwork also mentions that Jeremiah had one previous conviction of felony at the Clerkenwell Sessions on 1st April 1895.

The second is my paternal great grandfather, Albert Ernest Sandell. He was born in St Leonards Road, Bow in 1872. He had a brother called Alfred, who was born in 1875. Electoral Registers show Albert living with his wife Rebecca at 12 Annabel Street, Poplar. Once again, family members say that he was not a stranger to the police. The confusion arises in 1901, when at 12 Annabel Street, I find Rebecca living with Alfred (it says he was born in 1872) and that she is his wife. I also find a Albert Edward Sandell (born in 1872 in Old Ford, Bow, which is the same area as St Leonards Road) on the census for Wormwood Scrubs. I don't know which is the real Albert Ernest Sandell.

My question is how can I find out if the Old Bailey Jeremiah is indeed my grandfather and if the Albert Edward Sandell in Wormwood Scrubs is my great grandfather (could they have made a mistake with his name)? What information would court records give me to prove this and where would they be held? I would like to find out about the 1895 case at Clerkenwell, the 1905 case at the Old Bailey, the other case for Jeremiah when he spent a year in prison and about why Albert Edward (Ernest) was in Womwood Scrubs in 1901. I have tried to look to see what the London Metropolitan Archives has, but can't find any records that cover these dates.

Any advice that anyone could give me would be gratefully appreciated. Thank you in advance.

1881
Albert from Old Ford
Name: Albert Sandall
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1871
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Robert Sandall
Mother's name: Charlotte Sandall
Gender: Male
Where born: Old Ford, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Mile End Old Town
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 124 Duckett St
Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Mile End Old Town
Sub-registration district: Mile End Old Town, Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 24
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 483
Folio: 79
Page Number: 39
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Sandall 41
Charlotte Sandall 39
Adalaid Sandall 15
Anna Sandall 12
Albert Sandall 10
Auther Sandall 8
Alfred Sandall 6

who do you have as parents for Albert ernest?

I have Albert's birth certificate and his father was Robert and mother Charlotte. I have found the 1881 census.

Thanks for looking this up for me though

This is Albert and Rebecca in the 1891 census - it gives his birthplace as Stepney:-

1891 census transcription details for: 14, Weston Street, Bromley

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG12
Piece: 323
Folio: 14
Page: 22
Reg. District: Poplar
Sub District: Bromley
Parish: Bromley
Enum. District: 22
Ecclesiastical District: All Hallows Bow Common
City/Municipal Borough:

Address: 14, Weston Street, Bromley
County: London

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born

SANDALL, Albert Head Married M 21 1870 General Dealer
Stepney, London
SANDALL, Rebekah Wife Married F 19 1872
Stepney, London

Kath. x

Thanks Kath. I have these census details too. The problem arises after 1901, I haven't been able to find the 1911 census for Albert and Rebecca either x

I cannot find the Jeremiah you refer to in the 1891 census??

Can you please post details.

You refer to an Albert Edward Sandell (born 1872) in Wormwood Scrubbs - is there a birth registered for him?

I can only find the 1872 birth for an Albert Ernest Sandell- making me think they are one and the same (in name at least).

There is this Sandall on the 1901 - he is born in 1872 but it says born Deptford

Search criteria used

Person: SANDALL, Alfred Address: 112 -114 High St Deptford

Also I notice on the 1901 there are two children - Robert (1896) and May (1898) - do you have either birth certificate?

Do you have Rebecca's maiden name?

Also is this Robert from 1901 in 1911?

SANDELL, Robert
Inmate Single M 15 1896 School Shoemaker London Bow E
VIEW RG number: RG14
Piece: 9762 Reference:
RG14PN9762 RD188 SD10 ED89 SN9999
Registration District: West Ham
Sub District: Walthamstow
Enumeration District: 89
Parish: Woodford
Address: Shernhall St Walthamstow
County: Essex

Lynski, Jeremiah's mum married 3 times. Her second husband was John Goggin and Jeremiah is listed as Jeremiah Goggin on the 1891 census.

JannieAnnie, I cannot find a birth for Albert Edward Sandell either. Also, I don't think that the Alfed Sandell from Deptford is related. As for Robert and May. I do have May's birth certificate. However, I never knew that Robert existed until I found him on the census. I have found two school admissions for him in 1899, one on 6th March and one on 3rd July, but he disappears after this. Wouldn't think that the one in 1911 was him, because I have found various electoral rolls for his father around that time and he lived in Poplar, but, if he was still alive, then he has to be somewhere, so maybe it is. Rebecca's maiden name was Mann, but I have also not been able to find her birth certificate. I found this out, because my grandmother, Nellie (Robert and May's sister) was living with her grandparents in 1901.

Hi

It seems that they are a bit elusive! I asked the questions to see if they might be shown with other relatives on Census night.

Also, as a possible connection to the Robert (1896) in West Ham Registration District posted above, there is this 1911 Census for a Rebecca Mann who Nellie was living with in 1901?, so his/her grandmother????

MANN, Rebecca Head Widow F 57 1854 Clothes Seller Middlesex Milend VIEW
RG number: RG14
Piece: 9468
Reference: RG14PN9468 RG78PN507B RD188 SD3 ED58 SN99
Registration District: West Ham
Sub District: Plaistow
Enumeration District: 58
Parish: West Ham
Address: 97 Bidder St West Ham
County: Essex

I was trying to find a death for Rebecca (1870/1872) occurring after 1901 to get a time line but births, marriages etc are not apparent! She is not with her mother in 1911 so is she with one of her daughters Nellie or May - or someone else?

Did Albert Ernest Sandell and Rebecca (Mann) Sandell stay together do you know?

Because (speculating......) if he was 'away' in 1901 and she had someone else there on Census night (but used her husband's name for him to save face), then perhaps in 1911 she is registered with a new name, her son is in West Ham in School and he is in a lodging house in Deptford (might have gone for work reasons).

Hi JannieAnnie,

It gets curiouser and curiouser. I posted my question on a couple of other genealogy sites and received this reply:-

'If you search in the 19th Century British Library Newspapers or the subscription site British Newspaper Archive for "Albert Sandell" you will find a reference to a hearing at the Thames Police Court of 'Albert Sandell, 29, a married man, of 12, Annabel-street, Poplar' on a serious charge (details are given but I won't post them here: be warned that they are most unpleasant). (Reynolds's Newspaper, 30 December 1900). The article refers to him having been awarded a medal for saving lives in the 'Albion' disaster.

The magistrates 'committed the defendant, who denied the charge, to the sessions for trial.' As the trial must have been in 1901 it is too late for the 19th Century newspapers website.'

I don't know if Albert and Rebecca stayed together. I haven't been able to find a 1911 census for either of them. I have however found several electoral registers for Albert (no mention of Rebecca) in 1909 at 76 Kerbey Street, Poplar and then in 1913, 1914, 1915, 1918, 1919 and 1921 at 32 Southill Street, Poplar.

I have tried to find the 1911 census for Rebecca Mann (1854), but can't find it on Ancestry. Where did you find it?

I am so confused. What happened to Robert? I am wondering if Rebecca's real name is Elizabeth, because there is a Elizabeth (1872/73) living at 88 Duckett Street, Mile End in 1881). Albert lived at 124 Duckett Street, Mile End in 1881, but haven't found much on Elizabeth either.

Thanks for all your help

Hi

That newspaper article might be worth a look - it might give some more clues, but if that article was in 1900 then that could mean that the Albert in Wormwood Scrubbs is your man! Also it might 'answer' who was the one shown with Rebecca in Bow. I am not sure how the 1901 Census was taken - perhaps if the question was asked 'who lives here' she might have included ALL of the family (including Albert) perhaps to save face if he was away, or maybe there was someone there with her! At least with more information it can narrow down or give a tighter framework for speculation on ancestor activities.

I assume this is the Albion Disaster

http://www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/news/east_end_life/14_february/the_film-makers_dilemma_as_di.aspx

(there was one in South Wales too when I googled but ignored that one) referred to in the newspaper article

The Idea Store might have something (tower hamlets local history but they are closed to visitors at the moment)

http://www.ideastore.co.uk/en/articles/local_history

Also, you may or may not know about this website (it might be one that you used)

http://www.eolfhs.org.uk/

When I get a chance I might just take a "wander" along Duckett Street (fresh eyes), perhaps Rebecca is Elizabeth - there is an Elizabeth Rebecca Mann birth but it is the wrong place.

It might be worth trying to eliminate the Elizabeth in Duckett Street - are her details anywhere else or on other census years?

I found Rebecca 1854 on FMP.

THE DEATH ROLL.
Reynolds's Newspaper (London, England), Sunday, June 26, 1898; Issue 2498. (3088 words).


THE BLACKWALL DISASTER.
The Standard (London, England), Thursday, August 25, 1898; pg. 5; Issue 23138. (332 words). 19th Century British Library Newspapers: Part II.


BLACKWALL DISASTER HEROES.
Leicester Chronicle and the Leicestershire Mercury (Leicester, England), Saturday, August 27, 1898; pg. 8; Issue 4579. (640 words). 19th Century British Library Newspapers: Part II.


HEROES OF THE BLACKWALL DISASTER.
Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper (London, England), Sunday, August 28, 1898; Issue 2910. (1054 words).


THE CHINA WAR.
Reynolds's Newspaper (London, England), Sunday, December 30, 1900; Issue 2629. (1041 words).


(appears in above too, second from last has artists drawn pictures of heroes)

Chris :)

(below from a google search)

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:04mcY5qC6BIJ:http://www.dnw.co.uk/medals/auctionarchive/searchcataloguearchive/itemdetail.lasso%3Fitemid%3D64086%2Balbert+sandell+1898&hl=en-GB&gbv=2&gs_l=heirloom-hp.12...2123.13920.0.15212.31.31.0.0.0.0.481.4638.0j18j5j1j1.25.0...0.0...1c.1.x58gB3wgxmI&ct=clnk

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1232629

(see above 'Thread', Newspapers. Free to join!)

Chris :)

Hi Chris Ho,

Thank you so much for this information. I can't believe that you can access all that information for free. I have gone straight onto the site and joined. I can't wait until I get my library card and can start looking. I think I have a lot of researching to do.

1921 electoral roll
Name: Rebecca Sandell
Year: 1921
County or Borough: Tower Hamlets
Ward or Division/Constituency: Poplar

32 Southill Street

also listed is Albert

is this them in 1911

SANDY, Albert E Head Married M 39 1872 Fruit Dealer Old Ford London
SANDY, Rebecca Wife Married20 years F 38 1873 Assist In Business Stepney London
SANDY, Nell Daughter Single F 21 1890 Assist In Business Bow London
SANDY, May Daughter Single F 14 1897 School Bow London

RG number: RG14

Piece: 1689

Reference: RG14PN1689 RG78PN59 RD22 SD2 ED12 SN417

Registration District: Poplar

Sub District: Bromley

Enumeration District: 12

Parish: Poplar Borough

Address: 9 Bromley Cottage Poplar E

County: London

Births Jun 1891 (>99%)

Sandell Nellie Poplar 1c 667

1901
Name: Nellie Sandell
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation: Granddaughter
Gender: Female
Where born: Bow Common, London, England

Civil parish: Bromley
Ecclesiastical parish: All Angels and St Michael Bromley
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Poplar
Sub-registration district: Bromley
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 1
Piece: 345
Folio: 140
Page Number: 1
Household Members:
Name Age
Rebecca Mann 47 b. 1854 Mile End, London, England
Mary A Collins 27 daughter
Peter Collins 29 son in law
Nellie Sandell 11

1911 (on ancestry)

Name: Rebecca Mann
Age in 1911: 57
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Mile End, Middlesex
Civil parish: West Ham
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street Address: 97 Bidder St, Old Canning Town, West Ham, E
Marital Status: Widowed
Occupation: Clothes seller
Registration district: West Ham
Registration District Number: 188
Sub-registration district: Plaistow
ED, institution, or vessel: 58
Household schedule number: 99
Piece: 9468
Household Members:
Name Age
Rebecca Mann 57

7 children 4 living 3 died