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Oh what tangled webs they weave - great, you've got 2 scandals now, should may your step-mums day!!

Well we finally found Samuel Jones and he died in 1915 in Egypt, he was in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers

I also got Ivy's husband Thomas first wedding cert to a Rebecca Jones and the suspicions were right it was Ivy's sister. Rebecca didn't die before they married so I think Rebecca and Thomas took advantage in the relaxation of divorce laws that came in at the end of the 60s

On Ivy's marriage certificate he is listed as Samuel Webster Jones (deceased) but as she was late marrying then it doesnt narrow down any potential date of death.

I haven't ordered any of the birth certificates yet but thats next on my list. Funnily enough my step mum and her sister remember their great aunt Becky (Rebecca Jones) but none of them have ever heard of their younger brother Samuel Lewis Jones ever being mentioned.

Either he died young, moved away or his name wasnt mentioned by the family for some other reason. Another mystery to solve, my step mum is quite excited about this as she thought her family were a bit boring and not worth looking at

I suppose historic events couldve helped Laura pretend to be a widow as she could always say her first husband was killed or MIA in the war

Thanks Reggie

Completely forgot about that, I suppose I didn't think that would be possible as the examples I've heard of when that happens they tend to move away from the area and make a clean start but Laura married within a few miles of where she was living with her first husband.

I suppose Samuel could've moved away and made a fresh start somewhere else. I know that my step mum assumed that her gran's father was Laura's second husband and she was surprised when I said she was married before

No I agree, it's a difficult name to trace, especially in Wales. It looks like the middle name was only recorded on his marriage - he certainly wasn't born with such a name that I can see - nor a death under that full name. Wonder what he called himself on the children's birth certificates - do you have Ivy's certificate?

Don't assume that because his wife re-married he had actually died

Divorce was virtually unheard-of - and horrendously expensive - so some people simply 'moved on', and lied about their marital circumstances

I think his death might be recorded as Samuel Jones without his middle name. If that is the case then without ordering every death cert of a Samuel Jones between 1911 and 1920 then I will never really find it

You may be right about him being in a reserved occupation, but then why can't you find a death - and you say Laura re-marrried in 1920? A retorical question, just putting out thoughts..

I'm going to order their marriage cert, I did find a Samuel W Jones in the WW1 casualties list but that was with the London Regiment and as he was a Iron Worker he might have been in a reserved occupation

More waiting for certs for me then :-( :-(

There are no Samuel Webster Jones or plain Samuel Webster's registered in Flintshire 1880-90, so I think the marriage certificate to Laura may be needed.

I've also looked at CWG and the national archives, but no trace of a Samuel Webster Jones on either site so not sure if that was his real name.

I'm going to post the info I posted on the other thread below

I've found their marriage and the 1911 census you posted. The one you posted I saw on Ancestry but I got the free credits for the FMP website and they transcribed the names properly.

I did try the CWG website but due to the common name there were a lot of possibilities. I think I might have to go for a census hunt for him but as he got married in 1906 it means I'll have to guess who his parents were as I can't rely on him living with Laura or where he is living as it looks like he may be an 'economic migrant.

"I'm now trying to find the death of her father Samuel Webster Jones. According to the 1911 census he was born around 1887 in Mold, North Wales. He married a Laura Lewis in the Merthyr Tydfil registration district in 1906 and they had 3 children that we know of Rebecca Jones 1907, Ivy Lillian Jones 1909 and Samuel Lewis Jones (also known as Lewis Samuel Jones) 1910

Laura Jones nee Lewis married a Samuel Antrobus in 1920 and they went on to have 3 children themselves. So somewhere in the 9 years between 1911 and 1920 Samuel Webster Jones died. The biggest reason for his death could be WW1 but due to his name, even though he has an unusual middle name which we think is his mother's maiden name, I can't seem to find a record that definitely matches.

Any ideas out there??"

For ref, I'm assuming this is the 1911 census you have found?

Samuel Jones
Age in 1911: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Mold, Flintshire, Wales
Civil parish: Mold
County/Island: Flintshire
Country: Wales
Street Address: 22 Alun Terrace
Marital Status: Married
Years Married: 5
Estimated Marriage Year: 1906
Occupation: Iron Worker Porter
Registration district: Holywell
Registration District Number: 619
Sub-registration district: Mold
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Household schedule number: 123
Piece: 33961
Household Members: Name Age
Samuel Jones 24
Lawra Jones 24
Rebecca Jones 4
Ry Lilian Jones 2 << could be Ivy, it's definitely not Ry but a big ink-splot on image
Lenis Samuel Jones 1

Which would probably mean Samuel married Laura Lewis.

added, but with such common names (and no birth for Samuel Webster Jones that I can see) you may need their marriage certificate to get any further back.

Looks likely for parents marriage:

Marriages Sep 1906 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JENKINS Samuel Merthyr T. 11a 1183
Jones Mary Merthyr T 11a 1183
JONES Samuel Webster Merthyr T. 11a 1183
LEWIS Laura Merthyr T. 11a 1183

but not sure which bride - do you have Ivy's birth certificate?

It may be better to keep to this one thread so research isn't duplicated. Have you tried the CWG site to see if he died in the war?

Her father's name is Samuel Webster Jones born abt 1887 in Mold and he was an iron worker, I managed to find the family on the 1911 census and trying to work my way back on the others now.

There may be another 'scandal' as someone posted above her 'husband' Thomas Booth may have married a Rebecca Jones which just happens to be the name of her older sister. I know that its a common name but I've ordered that cert to be sure

I've just posted another thread as it looks like Samuel Webster Jones died sometime between 1911 and 1920 but I can't find his death. I am thinking it may be WW1 related

It's always great to have a bit of scandel in the family ;-) but did the certificate give her father's name and occupation so we can look for her on census?

the wedding certificate came yesterday and confirmed the suspicion that they have been 'living in sin' for at least 35yrs

i told my step mum, who is Ivy's grandaughter and she though it was hilarious and that it made her night. Apparently Ivy was a bit of a 'character' and it would be something she would do. Although we do have to keep it a bit quiet as her surviving children don't know this and she doesnt want to upset them

I am trying to find Ivy's father so I can hopefully tie down which one of my possibles on the census she is and continue further back with the line.

The reason I'm getting George's marriage certificate is two fold. Firstly just to tie up a loose end, as I don't like leaving them 'lying around'. I also have to tell all the information I find to a relation who will ask questions about family 'stories' which I might have just disproved. Also I need to confirm the name of the father of George's wife as there is some confusion over his name because I think its a case of someone being named one thing but called another.

George's mrriage cert won't tell you the name of Ivy's father....I thought that was what you wanted to find out............................

"I am trying to find her father's name"

Also, any father's name on a marriage cert is open to doubt if the mother was unmarried

Thanks everyone

I did notice Ivy Lillian Jones born in Merthyr Tydfil as one of my possibles in the 1911 census but without the fathers name I couldnt be sure.

They had 4 children together (plus George Hayden) and at least 2 grandchildren before they were married, all of the children beat them up the aisle

I've ordered George Hayden's marriage certificate, he got married in Scotland, and hopefully I'll find out if he has put the name of his supposed father John Jones on that certificate