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Could anyone please help me to find Selina in the 1911 census ? I have found her up to 1901.
She was half of a music hall act with Charles E Marsh, born in 1870 in Cornwall and could be with him in 1911 as they appear to have lived together from 1910.
He was married in 1886 to a Miriam White born 1968 in Tudhoe, County Durham and is reputed to have had two daughters with her and then "run off" with Selina. I haven't been able to find Charles in either the 1901 or 1911 census and his wife is missing from all census records after her marriage, there is some suggestion that Charles and his family went to Australia so possibly she stayed there and he came back ? Any help would be much appreciated.

Could this be her death?

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Selina French Name: Selina French
Birth Date: abt 1890
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1933
Age at Death: 43
Registration district: South Shields
Inferred County: Durham
Volume: 10a
Page: 997

Yes it is. I have her death cert and Charles E Marsh registered it and was with her when she died, they lived at the same address. Her death notice in the Stage Newspaper read
"Death - South Shields, 86 Wouldhave Street. Feb 25th Selina French (Connie Wyse of Whitty and Wyse) After a long illness. Deeply mourned by Harry."

I went through to the archives of The Stage newspaper and I have tracked Charles' career as Harry Whitty from 1910 up to 1935. He and Selina French were using the same contact addresses during that time sometimes advertising for work together as Whitty and Wyse and sometimes as two separate acts.

1890

abt
Birth
South Shields, Durham, England
3 source citations Hide source citations 1891 England Census
1901 England Census
England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005

1891

Age: 1 Residence
Westoe, Durham, England 57, Thames Street, Westoe, South Shields
1 source citation Hide source citations 1891 England Census

1901

Age: 11 Residence
South Shields, Durham, England Living with Aunt and Uncle.
1 source citation Hide source citations 1901 England Census

1910

7 Apr

Age: 20 Occupation
The Tivoli, South Shields Appearing as Whitty and Wyse with Charles E Marsh (from The Stage archive)

1910

22 Sep

Age: 20 Occupation
The Hippodrome, Chopwell county Durham Appearing as Whitty and Wyse with Charles E Marsh (from The Stage archive)

1924

20 Mar

Age: 34 Address
6 Northcote, Avenue Address used in work wanted ad in the stage newspaper.

1928

4 Oct

Age: 38 Occupation
Sunderland, Durham, England Appearing as Whitty and Wyse with Charles E Marsh (from The Stage archive)

1933

25 Feb

Age: 43 Death
South Shields, Durham, England Died at 1 Moor Lane West Harton (Sunderland General Hospital) Death registered by C E Marsh - present at death, of Wouldhave Street South Shields. Described on death cert as spinster of no occupation, daughter of James French a merchant seaman ( deceased)
1 source citation Hide source citations England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005

1933

Age: 43 Death Notice
The Stage newspaper Death - South Shields, 86 Wouldhave Street. Feb 25th Selina French (Connie Wyse of Whitty and Wyse) After a long illness. Deeply mourned by Harry.

Also Known As
Connie Wyse

Cause of Death
Pulmonary Tuburculosis

Occupation
Music hall entertainer often in Partnership with Charles E Marsh (Also known as Harry Whitty)

Yes that's what I have so far. I believe she is my grandfather's half sister.

I'm sure there's been a previous thread about this, will see if I can find it - there was a lot of info if I remember rightly. .......

EDIT: Yes, here it is:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/ancestors/thread/1277974

This request should really have been added to the original.

Actually the thread you refer to was about the music hall act and not about the individuals am seeking census information about here, but thanks for your comment.

You're welcome Jean.

The background info on there could be useful in your new request.

*****

Jean, possibly there have been no further responses because there seems to be no additional information to find. I've searched and searched for Selena in census, shipping lists (in case she followed Charles to Oz - but I can't find any record of him going, either). I've tried permutations of their stage names, too.

You do mention that Charles and Selina may have run off, it's possible that they may have lived together under false names (in order not to be found) which is why we can't find them.

You say you believe she may be you grandfather's half-sister - is that able to be verified by birth certificates? (Is the shared parent the mother or the father?) If the family connections can all be tied up then that might lead us to her - we have found people that way before.

EDIT: I see on your other thread that you think your great-grandmother was Ellen Ramsey b1884, so reckon the half sibling relationship must be by shared father?

My grandfather's birth certificate gives his mother's name as Ellen French formerly Ramsey and gives the father's name as James French, occupation of Father Sailor merchant service. The family story was that his mother was not married to his father who was older than her and that he was a sailor who went to sea and didn't come back. The additional story was that Ellen Ramsey was "on the stage" at the time, with her sister, possibly as chorus girls and were "no better than they should be" I have Ellen and my grandfather in the 1911 census, by which time she was 27 and had another child by a different, unnamed, father. My grandfather was born in 1898 so she was very young, too young to be married.
The photographs we have of Whitty and Wyse and of Connie Wyse on her own were thought by my mum to be relatives of my grandfather though she didn't know what the relationship was. When I found that Connie Wyse's real name was Selina French I found that her father was a James French born 1853 a Mariner. By the time my Grandfather was born James French Mariner was widowed ( his wife died in 1895). and his children scattered among relatives. I can't find a death for him , or find him in the 1901 or 1911 census.
The only solid link is that in 1924 Conne/Selina used the address of my grandfather and his mother in an advert for work in the stage newspaper.

They may have used false names though, as stage people then were still reckoned to be more than slightly disreputable I wouldn't think they would be so concerned. The Stage death notice seems to acknowledge her close relationship with Harry/Charles so it doesn't seem to have been a secret. Sorry to be so long winded !!

Jean

I was having a look at Charles E Marsh b 1870 to see if I could find any clues on Selina. You say he married in 1886 to a Miriam White but that would have made him 16 years at the time. Miriam White married Robert Heels and emigrated to the USA in 1887. There is a name missing on the record on Ancestry but in 1886 Durham bmd has a Charles Marsh marrying a Margaret Rippon.

There is a Charles E Marsh in South Shields in 1891. Is this your Charles E?


1891 England Census
about Charles E Marsh Name: Charles E Marsh
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1870
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Elizabeth J Marsh
Gender: Male
Where born: Deanscombe, Cornwall, England

Civil parish: Westoe
Ecclesiastical parish: St Aidans
County/Island: Durham
Country: England


Registration district: South Shields
Sub-registration district: Westoe
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Piece: 4152
Folio: 107
Page Number: 37
Elizabeth J Marsh 48
Florence A Marsh 27
Charles E Marsh 21
Elizabeth A Marsh 17
Rosina J Marsh 12
Kate E Marsh 10
Alfred A Marsh 8
Beatrice M Marsh 6
Ada B Marsh 1
J W Foreman 19
Joseph H Foreman 13
Isabella Angus 17

Vera

Charles E Marsh is with mum 1891 a paper hanger and decorater and Single!!

1901 Gloucester St Nicholas D4 > 2
Charles E Maish (Marsh)1870 Deanscombe Cornwall a Visitor Married Comedy Act.

Maryb

Oh my goodness ! that is Charles in 1901 thank you so much Mary. I will have to go back to The stage archive to try to find his stage name before he became Harry Whitty.
That is him with his family in 1901.
Would you like to look for my grandfather and his mother in 1901 ? you are obviously better at this than me !!

That is him Vera The confusion on the marriage stems from a Marsh descendant telling me he married Miriam White when very young, and that he left her. I will look again for a different abandoned wife.

Thanks again.
Jean

This is the FreeBMD entry for the 1886 marriage - all names present.

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Mar 1886 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HEELS Robert Durham 10a 389
MARSH Charles Durham 10a 389
Rippon Margaret Durham 10a 389
White Miriam Durham 10a 389

I think the 1886 date is part of the red herring of the story of Miriam White. it makes more sense that he married between 1891 when he was single with his family and 1901 when he is registered in 1901 census as married. I will have to look for a marriage which leaves the wife alone in 1901. The problem is I dont know when he ditched the paperhanging and went on the road with his comedy act he may not have married in Durham.
Jean

Hi jean can you tell me were to find info on Ivy and Ellen Ramsey,I can't find either of them.
If they were on the stage did they have stage names.
Also I can't find James Fench's military record with numbers you gave on thread dated 8/8/2009

Do you have date of death for Ellen French nee Ramsey.
She must have had some help if she had a child at 15 and also some income going by the photo of James on your tree.

Maryb

Jean, I've noticed on the birth certificate for James b 1898 that the address is given as 24 Villa Place, Newcastle.

In both the 1891 and the 1901 census the family that lives there is called Goundry. I'm wondering that if Ellen gave that address in 1898 she may have had a connection to the family - does the name ring any bells with you?

Having looked at earlier and later census it looks like Mrs Goundry took in boarders, so perhaps Ellen rented a room.

According to North Tyneside bmd Charles Edwin married Christina Jane Smith. 1911 Christina married with family occupation musical artist. EDIT Alice and Ada were grandchildren. Christina had been married for 17yrs in 1911.

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1915
about Charles Edwin Marsh Name: Charles Edwin Marsh
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1894
Registration district: Tynemouth
Inferred County: Northumberland
Volume Number: 10b
Page Number: 348 (click to see others on page)

1911 England Census
about Christina Marsh Name: Christina Marsh
[Christina Sandford]
Age in 1911: 33
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Newcastle-on-tyne, Northumberland, England
Civil parish: South Shields
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Street Address: 139 Dale Street South Shields
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Musie Hall Artist
Registration district: South Shields
Registration District Number: 556
Sub-registration district: South Shields
ED, institution, or vessel: 20
Piece: 30279
Household Members: Name Age
Clara Sandford 53
Christina Marsh 33
Gilbert Sandford 17
Alice Marsh 16
Ada Marsh 14
George Macintosh 30
Christina Macintosh 4
Henry Crowther 26
Elizabeth Crowther 26
John Crowther 10

Vera