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Hello everybody,

I'm new here and I'd like to ask a question of the experts please. I want to find out the name of the mother of Thomas Kenny born in Liverpool in 1884/5. Just her first name would do but her maiden name would be useful as well.

The father of the particular one I'm looking for is Francis Kenny. Hopefully there will be only one with that father although I could be completely wrong and none of them have a father named Francis Kenny.

According to ancestry there were nine boys with the name Thomas Kenny born in Liverpool in 1884/5. I include the districts of Liverpool, Toxteth Park and West Derby in the city of Liverpool.

The Liverpool History Projects website allows me to rule out four of them and possibly two more. This site provides the full names of both parents for baptisms and none of the four have the father as Francis Kenny.

My Thomas Kenny was six in the 1891 census meaning he was born between April 1884 and March 1885 if his age was correct in 1891 (I'm assuming it is for now). So the period I'm looking at is the second quarter of 1884 to the second quarter of 1885 (the second quarter is included to allow for delays in registering March 1885 births). So on top of the four definite ones you can rule out another one for being too young.

So the favourites are Thomas Owen Kenny birth registered in first quarter 1885 in Toxteth Park and Thomas Kenny second quarter in Toxteth Park also. This is assuming I'm not completely wrong. Anyway if I had to get their birth certificates I would start with one of these two.

The other two that might be ruled out by the Liverpool History Projects site are Thomas Kenny first quarter 1885 in Liverpool and Thomas Kenny second quarter 1884 in Liverpool.

Sorry for being long winded. I wonder if anyone can help me with this. Of course none of them might have a father named Francis.

Thanks very much.

On another note does anyone know of any other free sites that can provide the names of the parents for births and/or baptisms?

I've found the Liverpool History Projects site, the Lancashire Online Parish Clerk Project site, LancashireBMD and familysearch.

Thanks again.

i think you would have to buy a birth cert for parents names

does the one you see on the 1891 have a father Francis cos i cant see him at the mo

Name: Thomas Kenny
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James Kenny
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Kenny
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool; Kirkdale
Civil parish: Kirkdale
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Kirkdale
ED, institution, or vessel: 20
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2962
Folio: 81
Page Number: 18
Household Members:
Name Age
James Kenny 50
Elizabeth Kenny 37
James Kenny 13
John Kenny 11
Thomas Kenny 6
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 2962; Folio 81; Page 18; GSU roll: 6098072.


or
Name: Thomas Kenny
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Thomas Kenny
Mother's Name: Mary Kenny
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: St Martin
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2899
Folio: 54
Page Number: 20
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Kenny 52
Mary Kenny 34
Mary E Kenny 14
Thomas Kenny 6
Theresa Kenny 4
Agnes Kenny 2
Marcella Kenny 34
Esther Kenny 9
Mary Ann Coote 34
Corbett Ryder 9
Mary Flood 32
John Flood 6
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 2899; Folio 54; Page 20; GSU roll: 6098009.

??

Name: Frank Kenny
Birth Year: abt 1865
Age: 21
Marriage Date: 28 Feb 1886
Parish: Toxteth Park Holy Trinity
Spouse's Name: Margaret Jordan
Father's Name: Francis Kenny
Spouse Father's Name: John Jordan

Ancestry has some Liverpool records

Did you get the name Francis from Thomas's marriage cert?

Was he, by chance, 'deceased'?

How old did Thomas say he was when he married.......and when did he marry?

Are you 100% certain that Thomas was actually born in Liverpool?

Do you know of any siblings for Thomas ?

Have you looked for a marriage for Francis Kenny ?

Did you get the father's name from Thomas's marriage cert ?
If so, what was Francis' occupation?

Could this be your Thomas in 1901 please?

Name: Thomas Kenny
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885
Relation: Inmate
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: Liverpool St Columba
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:TRAM CAR DRIVER


Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: Mount Pleasant
ED, institution, or vessel: Liverpool Workhouse
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 1
Piece: 3420
Folio: 100
Page Number: 42

You refer to the 1891 census......please post the info here

Just guessing:
1881
29, Gilbert St, Liverpool
RG number: RG11 Piece: 3616 Folio: 52 Page: 12

Reg. District: Liverpool Sub District: St Thomas
KENNY, Francis Head Widower M 35 1846 General Labourer
Ireland
KENNY, Francis Son Single M 15 1866 Scholar
Liverpool
Lancashire
KENNY, George Son Single M 12 1869 Scholar
Liverpool
Lancashire
KENNY, Mary Ann Daughter Single F 10 1871 Scholar
Liverpool
Lancashire
KENNY, William Son Single M 8 1873 Scholar
Liverpool
Lancashire
KENNY, John Son Single M 6 1875 Scholar
Liverpool
Lancashire
KENNY, Daniel Son Single M 2 1879
Liverpool
Lancashire
.................
1891 census transcription details for: 5, 2 Court, Rutter Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool
RG number: RG12 Piece: 2931 Folio: 4 Page: 1

Reg. District: Toxteth Park Sub District: Toxteth Park
KENNY, William Head Single M 17 1874 Dock Labourer
Liverpool
KENNY, John Brother Single M 15 1876 Dock Labourer
Liverpool
KENNY, Thomas Brother M 6 1885 Scholar
Liverpool


Maureen

It would appear that our new member may not know how to respond......so Barry if you're reading this.....click on "add reply" at top of page.

Just eliminating one:
England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915 about Thomas Owen Kenny
Name: Thomas Owen Kenny
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1885
Age at Death: 0
Registration district: Toxteth Park
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 158

Maureen

PS-I think you're right,Alan!

Hello again,

Thanks for the replies.

I should've given more details about father Francis because my family has three. The one in question, if I'm right, was born about 1845 in Ireland. It's not his son, who was born in 1865, in Liverpool.

The 1881 census for the whole household has:

father Francis, a widower, age 35 born Ireland
son Francis, age 15
son George, age 12
daughter Mary Ann, age 10
son William, age 8
son John, age 6
son Daniel, age 2

From the 1871 census Francis' wife is Mary Ann born about 1846 in Ireland.
I think father Francis died in 1890. I matched up the 1871 and 1881 censuses, possibly dodgy, by matching Francis the father, George and Mary Ann. I think Francis, the eldest son from 1881, is shown as Thomas in 1871 (I've seen that kind of thing before) and Mary Ann is 4 but I think that's four months (for one thing she's at the bottom of the list in 1871 after George, who's two, and the list is normally in reverse order of age). I'm sure I looked for other Francis Kennys and none seemed right. To make things clear here is the 1871 census (I should've done this first):

head Frances (Francis?), age 26, born Ireland
wife Mary Ann, age 25, born Ireland
son Thomas (Francis?), age 5 born Liverpool
son George age 2, born Liverpool
daughter Mary Ann age 4 months born Liverpool
brother in law (should that be brother?) George Kenny age 20 born Ireland

I don't know if the 1871 census is of much use though but it shows that Francis was married to Mary Ann.

The 1891 census for the whole household of Thomas Kenny has:
head William, age 17
brother John, age 16
brother Thomas, age 6

Ancestry for 1891 has two transcription errors; William's surname is shown as Benny and Thomas's surname is Kenney.

I can't remember why I think the 1881 and 1891 Williams and Johns are the same people but I probably looked around for alternatives and couldn't find any. Their mother and father were both dead by 1891. I just wondered who the mother of Thomas was if Mary Ann died before the 1881 census. I couldn't find any Francis Kenny marriages for 1881 - 1885 but the child could've been born out of wedlock. Although being Irish Francis would probably be a Catholic.

However, there was a married woman named Mary Ann Kenny of about the right age born in Ireland who was in jail for the 1881 census. I was wondering if she was the wife of Francis and perhaps he lied to the census people in 1881 when he described himself as a widower. If she was the mother of Thomas, who was born between the 1881 and 1891 censuses, then I'd know she was still alive. I had a look for other Mary Ann Kennys of the right age and birthplace for the 1871, 1881 and 1891 census and I think I more or less ruled them all out (I think they were all married and living with their husbands - not named Francis, or else single and the convict was shown as married).

The jail theory may be a bit crazy and I wouldn't want to buy half a dozen birth certificates trying to find a Thomas Kenny who had a mother named Mary Ann just to prove Francis lied to the census people in 1881. If that did turn out to be the case I would then try to find out if the Mary Ann in jail in 1881 was my Mary Ann.

I should really have listed all the Thomas Kennys born in Liverpool in 1884/5 but I was a bit lazy and I didn't think people would want to read through all that anyway.

Anyway I've now boiled the nine Thomas Kennys born Liverpool 1884/5 down to one or possibly two I think. I checked Thomas Kenny deaths a while ago but I forgot to mention that. A Thomas Owen Kenny died third quarter 1885 at Toxteth Park. Another one died 2nd quarter 1884 at Liverpool.

That leaves two possible Thomas Kennys:

one birth registered 2nd quarter 1885 at Toxteth Park (the favourite)
another birth registered 1st quarter 1885 at Liverpool (possibly died 4th quarter 85 in Liverpool).

If I can't find out the parent's names of those two then I could buy the birth certificate of the first one. Although my logic could easily fall over and I've got the wrong one. That's why I thought I would ask here.


To shirley:

No there was no father in 1891. I think he died in 1890.

To Flick:

No I didn't get the name Francis from Thomas' wedding certificate. I think I must have just worked back in time from what I knew. Francis' eldest son Francis also had a son Francis who was my great grandfather. Francis the elder died in 1890 I think.

To Mike:

I listed Thomas's siblings in the 1891 census and also in 1881 if I've matched the siblings right. I have looked for a Francis Kenny marriage and I found a possible one with a Mary Ann Brown in 1864 but I have doubts about it. For all I know Francis and Mary Ann could've got married in Ireland and moved to Liverpool in time for the birth of their son Francis in 1865. Francis was a general labourer for the 1881 census.

To rootgatherer:

yes Thomas Kenny the inmate (was it a workhouse?) in 1901 could be my guy

Thanks for the help everyone.

By the way I'm still wondering if there are any free sites that provide parents' names for births in addition to the four I mentioned.

I'm off to work now so I won't be back for about four hours. If people are still persevering with this, which would be nice of you all, I'll reply then.

Sorry, I took so long to reply some more replies appeared while I was composing my last message (it takes a while to put my thoughts together unfortunately).

To Maureen:

Yes those are the 1881 and 1891 census households that I'm looking at.

And that's the same Thomas Owen that I ruled out due to his death but forgot to mention in my original post.

Thanks very much.

????
.........................
FreeBMD

Deaths Jun 1887
Kenny Mary Ann 40 Toxteth Park 8b 187

Deaths Jun 1890
Kenny Francis 45 Toxteth Park 8b 143
...................
England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations),
Kenny Francis 10 July. Administration (with the Will of the Personal Estate of Francis Kenny late of Winkle-street Toxteth Park Liverpool in the county of Lancaster Dock Labourer who died 13 April 1890 at Winkle-street was granted at Liverpool under the usual Limitations to Francis Kenny of 11 Tupman street Toxteth Park Freight Clerk the brother and Guardian of William Kenny John Arthur Kenny and Daniel Kenny Minors and of Thomas Kenny an Infant the Sons the Residuary Legatees.

Personal Estate 31 (pounds) 9s. 7d.

Maureen

I would advise you to work backwards obtaining documentary proof at each step

I do worry about the number of times you say 'I think' when giving info about people

Hello again,

Maureen -

I knew about the Mary Ann Kenny death that you found on freeBMD. That was another reason I wondered if Francis was telling the truth describing himself as a widower in the 1881 census. I could be wrong about his wife being a Mary Ann in the first place but I don't think so. When I thought he actually was a widower in 1881 I found a Mary Kenny on freeBMD died Mar 1879 in Liverpool at the age of 33 which fits.

I found the Francis Kenny death also.

Thanks for the will information. I did find that on ancestry but it didn't have all the details that you provided. I knew the addresses of the two Francis' though and Winkle Street looks to be less than 50 metres from Tupman Street not that that means anything.

Do you mind telling me where you found the will information?

Flick -

Sorry to come across as unsure about my information. That's just my personality I'm afraid. I'm a bit of a doubter about everything. But anything that I do have real doubts about (like the Francis Kenny - Mary Ann Brown wedding for example although I have seen that on Kenny trees on ancestry) I put by until I have more information.

For an example of the kind of thing I worry about, let's say that you found a household in the 1871 census and another one in the 1881 census in the same town that matched the parents and all three, say, childrens names, ages, place of birth plus the head of household's occupation. Then you checked all of England and Wales for both censuses to see if there existed another family that matched and found nothing. Would it be acceptable to say that the two families are the same? Or are there other sources of information that you should check first? And if so what sources? I'd worry about the 1871 census family moving to outer Mongolia, or somewhere without records, and being replaced by another matching family in time for the 1881 census.

The mistakes in the census, birth, death and wedding certificates also worry me. I have a wedding certificate that says the father of the groom was a labourer when in fact he was a retired naval captain. I know from other sources that my information is correct.

Sorry for telling you things you already know. I'm quite new to this and it seems to me to be a bit of an inexact science.

Do you remember the Godfather? If I remember right he arrived alone as a small boy from Sicily and the very busy immigration clerk (at Ellis Island?) wrote that his surname was Corleone when in fact that was where he was from and his surname was something else which was presumably not recorded. And what if he was actually from Korleeni and there was another town called Corleone. How could you work out all that years later when the godfather was dead?

I'd love to see the detailed proof for Barack Obama's relative that came from a small village in Ireland. I suppose the information must be certain.

You know all this already of course but I just wanted to explain why I say "I think" a lot. Most of the time I am actually sure of my information. I should be a bit more careful about when I write "I think". Anyway I'm sure somehow that the experts can be sure of everything they do. As a beginner though I can't quite imagine it. No offense intended to the experts out there.

Thanks for your advice though. I have documented everything but it's not as neat as it should be. I'll have to sort it all out soon so that anyone could read my notes and make sense of it.

There aren't any 'experts' on GR. We are all just paying members like yourself

Hi Barry,

The will information was from Ancestry. It starts on one page and continues onto the next one. Perhaps you missed the second page?

I would get one of the boys' birth certificate to check on the mother's name. No sense guessing.

Maureen
(so not an expert :-D)

Thanks Maureen,

Yes I guess I'll have to buy the birth certificate of my best guess for the right Thomas Kenny and hope I'm right. There were at least nine born in 1884/5 and I don't really want to go through them all buying birth certificates. It would be nice to know the mother but it's not that important.

Barry