Find Ancestors

Could someone help me with some info please.In an Australian newspaper dated 23rd dec. 1889 on the announcement of her wedding my Great Aunt states that she is Great Grandaughter of the late Lady Rivers & Great Grand Niece of ladies Clybourne & Snoxell,of Stoke Newington, and Upper Clapton England. could someone make sense of this. Joy

It might help to have your Great Aunt's name


but Lady is a title that may be acquired on marriage to a Sir somebody-or-other OR because the female was born to a father who had a title.



sylvia

Is this the notice???


MCGUIRE--RIVERS.-At St. Benedict's Church, Sydney, by j
Ker. Bather Cronan, Jsrafcs. el list son of Stetlhen M'OuIre ' (Sydney), to Isnbelh Jane, eldest daughter of Captain W11 Ham John Rivers, of Harbour and Rivers Department, N.S.W., great grand-daughter of the lato Lsdy River«, Blackheath, England, and great grand-niece of Ladies Clr bournc and Snoxell, of Stoke Newington, and upper Clapton, Fnglsnd and grand-niece of Mrs. May, Clarke. and Crokei, Limehonsc, London. Home papers please




so

her father William John Rivers was the grandson of this Lady Rivers, of Blackheath, London ...............

and grand-nephew of Ladies Clybourne and Snoxell of Stoke Newington and Upper Clapton, England

and Isabella was the grand-niece of Mrs May Clarke and Croker, Limehouse, London


All these areas are in or around London.


sylvia

Edited 7:15 am Dec 15 .... to add words omitted by mistake

According to a tree on ancestry, William John Rivers (1829-1918) was the son of William John Rivers (1800- ) and Margaret Thomas (1804 - ) ........ but there is no indication of family back before that, ie no grandmother for William John, and therefore no great grandmother for Isabella


So far as I know, most of these areas are not very "upper class" ....... could she possibly have claimed higher rank than was true????




sylvia

Thats what I thought Sylvia. Quite a lot of my ancestors were born in those areas would be very surprised if there were any Lords and Ladies living there.....but you never know :-D

:-D :-D :-D :-D

Just out of interest, this is the Parish Register entry for William John Rivers, 1829- 1918

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about William John Rivers

Name: William John Rivers
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1832 <<<< see below
Baptism Date: 11 Jul 1832
Father's Name: William Rivers
Mother's Name: Margaret Rivers
Parish or Poor Law Union: Limehouse St Anne
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Register Type: Parish Registers

from image:- Born June 14 1829
Address:- Poplar
Father occupation:- Mariner




sylvia

Yes your on the right track sylvia my mother always said there were sirs and ladies in the family but i was taken aback when i found the wedding announcement in the paper. The Pitt Rivers seem to be the only possible solution.Mum mentioned that a family member ran of with the servant hence we became the poor side.If a connection could be found it would solve a mystery ive been unable to find joy

If you post the facts that you have we might be able to work back for you.

Can you post details of your grandparents on both sides please, when/where they were born, names including maiden names

x

1841??

Name: William Rivers
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Gender: Male
Where born: Middlesex, England
Civil parish: St Anne Limehouse
Hundred: Ossulstone (Tower Division)
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

View image
Registration district: Stepney
Sub-registration district: Limehouse
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 701
Book: 6
Folio: 11
Page Number: 14
Household Members:
Name Age
Margaret Rivers 35 Occ: Milkwoman
Margaret Rivers 15
William Rivers 12
Sarah Rivers 6
Isabella Rivers 1

Lots of mentions of William John Rivers in Sands Directories: Sydney and New South Wales, Australia, 1858-1933. In some he is shown as a Master Mariner living at 12 Franklin Place, Glebe.

It looks as if he married in Sydney in 1861 to a Rebecca Noble. Could the supposed "Titled" background be through her?

Name: William J Rivers
Spouse Name: Rebecca Noble
Marriage Date: 1861
Marriage Place: New South Wales
Registration Place: Sydney, New South Wales
Registration Year: 1861
Registration Number: 190

The above info is my family in the 1841 census where it says Margaret Rivers 35 occ milkwoman was where i thought my GG Grandfather ( William John Rivers) died as she remarried to William Thompson 1843 but have since heard that he lived to about the 1870s but i have not found him as yet. Both my GGGrandfather & GGrandfather WJ Rivers were master Mariners the later in Australia. The" titles" were definitely on on the Rivers side. Joy

According to a Public Family Tree on ancestry, Margaret Thomas married at least 3 times!

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about Margaret Thomas

Name: Margaret Thomas
Spouse Name: William Rivers
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 17 Feb 1824
Parish: St George in the East
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Register Type: Parish Register


London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about Margaret Rivers

Name: Margaret Rivers
Spouse Name: William Thompson
Spouse Age: Full Age
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 10 Oct 1843
Parish: St Mary Stratford Bow
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: William Thorn <<<<<<<< it is Thomas on the image
Spouse Father Name: Robert Thompson
Register Type: Parish Register

from Image:-

Margaret
Of Full Age
Widow
Residence:- Bow
Father occupation:- Deceased

William
Of Full Age
Bachelor
Residence:- Bow
Occupation:- Mariner
Father occupation:- Deceased



London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about Margaret Thompson

Name: Margaret Thompson
Spouse Name: Charles Smith
Spouse Age: Full Age
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 4 Sep 1854
Parish: Stepney St Thomas
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: William Thompson <<<<<<< it is Thomas on the image
Spouse Father Name: Charles Smith
Register Type: Parish Register

From image:-

Margaret
Of Full Age
Widow
Address:- Stepney
Father William Thomas, Carpenter

Charles
Of Full Age
Bachelor
Occupation:- Mariner
Address:- Stepney
Father occupation:- Blacksmith


Censuses seem to support this



sylvia

1851 Census

Name: Margaret Thompson
Age: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1807
Relation: Head
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Aberythbury, Wales

Civil parish: Limehouse
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Stepney
Sub-registration district: Limehouse

Margaret Thompson 44 Widow, Mariner's Widow
Margaret Morgan 25 b.ca 1826, Stepney, Daughter, Mariner's Wife
Sarah Rivers 16 b.ca 1835, Limehouse
Isabella Rivers 10 b.ca 1841, St George's in the East
Eleanor Rugg 20 Visitor

Address:- 2 New Street


1861 Census

Name: Margaret Smith
Age: 54
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1807
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: South Wales, Cardiff

Civil parish: Limehouse
Ecclesiastical parish: St Anne
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Stepney
Sub-registration district: Limehouse

Margaret Smith 54 Married, Mariner's Wife
Mary Morgan 68 b.ca 1793, Cardiff, South Wales, Aunt, Widow, Charwoman
Sarah Esther Rivers 26 b.ca 1835, Limehouse, Middlesex, Daughter, Married, Mariner's Wife
Sarah Ann Cole 7 b.ca 1854, Limehouse, Granddaughter
Isabella Cole 2 b.ca 1859, Limehouse, Granddaughter
Mary Fickey 45 Visitor
Frederick Curwick 22, Boarder, Mariner
William T Tucker 19, Boarder, Mariner

Address:- 1a Wilcomb Place




sylvia

1871 Census

Name: Margaret Smith
Age: 67
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1804
Relation: Mother-in-Law
Gender: Female
Where born: Aberystwyth, Wales
Civil parish: St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Walthamstow
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Registration district: West Ham
Sub-registration district: Walthamstow

Charles Foot 38 b.ca 1833, Corfe Castle, Dorset, Carpenter
Isabella J Foot 31 b.ca 1840, St George in the East, Middlesex
Isbella M Foot 11
William C Foot 7
Margaret M Foot 5
Henry E Foot 1
Alfred C Foot 5 Months
Margaret Smith 67 Widow, Nurse (domestic)

Address:- Aubury Cottage, Aubury Road


London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about Isabella Jane Rivers

Name: Isabella Jane Rivers
Spouse Name: Charles Foot
Spouse Age: Full Age
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 23 Mar 1857
Parish: Stepney St Thomas
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: William John Rivers
Spouse Father Name: Charles Foot
Register Type: Parish Register

from image:-

Isabella
Of Full Age
Spinster
Address:- Stepney
Father occupation:- Captain Merchant Service

Charles
Of Full Age
Bachelor
Occupation:- Carpenter
Address:- Stepney
Father occupation:- Dairyman



sylvia

I think you have to be very careful with this family ..... they use and re-use the same names over and over again.



How and where did you hear that Margaret's first husband, William John Rivers lived until the 1870s?


This is where you have to be careful!!!



sylvia

I can't find anything any further back than William John's marriage to Margaret Thomas

There seems to be no baptism from William John ....... and I, at least, have not found him on any census, so we don't know where he was born!


Names of fathers were not on parish registers before 1837 ...... sow e don't even have a name for William John's father


It's beginning to feel very much like a family story, that has got embellished over the years! Possibly beginning with that wedding announcement in the Australian paper!


sylvia

anyone with a title should be listed here

http://www.burkespeerage.com/

so we are looking probably for a

Sir or Lord Snoxell

or Sir or Lord Clybourn

or Sir or Lord Rivers.


any of which married, we think, a female Rivers.


They have also got to have been born in the 1750-1780 range, as they are of the generation the FATHER of William John Rivers born c 1800


I've looked on familysearch, and can't see anything

BUT ancestry has the following Snoxell / Rivers marriage

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about Edward Snoxell

Name: Edward Snoxell
Spouse Name: Mary Rivers
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 18 Mar 1793
Parish: Southwark St Saviour
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Register

from image:-

Edward Snoxell of the Parish of Dunstable in Bedfordshire, Batchelor, and Mary Rivers of this Parish, Spinster

Married by Licence

Witnesses:- John Rivers and James Harvey



Just as a note ..... Edward and the 2 witnesses signed their own name. Mary could not write, and "signed" by her mark



sylvia

but the only Snoxell's I can find on the earliest censuses (1841 and 1851) are mundane ..... ag labs, straw plaiters, blind makers, etc


certainly not of the upper classes!




sylvia