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I am trying to find any information on Lily Hutcheon who lived in Kingston upon Thames in 1938. I believe she had an older brother who lived nearby.She gave birth to a son, she named Ralph in 1939 but was then adopted. I think she may have been born in South Shields in 1902 but have no positive identification of this, or any other member of her family.She is suppose to have had a twin sister, possibly named Olive.
Can anyone help please as I seem to have hit a wall.

twins born 1902 ?


Births Sep 1902 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hutcheon Lily S. Shields 10a 941
Hutcheon Mary S. Shields 10a 941

Name: Lily Hutcheon
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1902
Registration district: South Shields
Inferred County: Durham, Tyne and Wear
Volume: 10a
Page: 941 (click to see others on page)

No Olive found but

Name: Mary Hutcheon
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1902
Registration district: South Shields
Inferred County: Durham, Tyne and Wear
Volume: 10a
Page: 941 (click to see others on page)

I assume this is where you got your info?

Name: Lily Hutcheon
Birth Date: 23 Jul 1902
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1982
Age at Death: 79
Registration district: Kingston Upon Thames
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 13
Page: 2359

Do you have the cert?

jan

Related??

Name: Nellie Jackson Hutcheon
Birth Date: 7 Aug 1909
Date of Registration: Aug 1996
Age at Death: 87
Registration district: Kingston Upon Thames
Inferred County: Surrey
Register number: C66
District and Subdistrict: 2401C
Entry number: 19

Replied individually, but think I should have sent a general message. (still new to use of this board)
Do you know if Nellie was married to a Ralph Hutcheon who died in Carshalton,Sutton? I am assuming he may have been a brother to Lily as he came from South Shields and lived near to Lily in Kingston on Thames.
She named her son Ralph, so this is all assumption on my part. I know from my Aunt that Lily use to call her sister Olive.Maybe that was just a name she used. Any leads at all would be much appreciated. Thank you all.
Pat

hi Patricia, just us night owls around now :-)

I'm feeling a little like I'm riding off in all directions reading this thread

one thing

you can search for births marriages and deaths free of charge up to the 1950s or so ( so far ) at freebmd

http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl

just give it a try, you can look for things like all Ralph Hutcheon birhs, marriages and deaths

for later than that many of us use Ancestry, that's where some of the records in this thread have come from


Nellie Jackson Hutcheon who died in 1996 at 87 ... born 1909 ... is there another Ralph Hutcheon other than the one born 1939 you mentioned at the beginning ?

I can't find a Nellie Hutcheon birth to match or a marriage of a Nellie to a Hutcheon

anytime around 1909 there is only one Nellie Jackson X birth

Births Sep 1907
PURCELL Nellie Jackson Oldham 8d 679

but I would wonder whether Jackson wasn't her own surname ( or married surname ) and she was going by a partner's surname, Hutcheon


there are only two Ralph Hutcheon deaths since 1916 up to 2005

> Ralph Hutcheon 1898 Oct-Nov-Dec 1975 Sutton Greater London
Ralph Hutcheon 1923 Aug 1986 Grimsby Lincolnshire


can you maybe expand a bit on your information ?

who is the Ralph Hutcheon who died in 1975 in relation to the Lily Hutcheon you are asking about? or is this theories so far that need testing ?

why do you think she was born in South Shields in 1902, is it just because there is that birth record there ? the name Olive, where did it come from ?

and anything else you know or have heard ( as long as you say which is which ! )

it is possible that Ralph's mother Lily was a Hutcheon by marriage and just didn't acknowledge that on his birth certificate

there are these marriages after 1916 for a Lil* to a Hutcheon

Lillian Wright Hutcheon Jan-Feb-Mar 1923 Grimsby Lincolnshire Essex
Lilian M Thornton Hutcheon Jul-Aug-Sep 1934 Stepney Middlesex
Lilian M Branch Hutcheon Jan-Feb-Mar 1936 Tendring
Lily E R Wiles Hutcheon Jan-Feb-Mar 1954 Worthing Sussex


the other Ralph Hutcheon whose death I posted above

Births Sep 1898
Hutcheon Ralph S. Shields 10a 879

which of course seems to go with

Births Sep 1902
Hutcheon Lily S. Shields 10a 941


so we do some free searches in the 1911 census ( because we don't pay )

http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx

but I suspect Hutcheon has suffered in the transcription, no Ralph or Lily showing


there's no birth of an Olive Hutcheon or marriage of an Olive to a Hutcheon to account for this death

Name: Olive Hutcheon
Birth Date: 27 Jul 1901
Date of Registration: Oct 1994
Age at Death: 93
Registration district: Surrey Northern
Inferred County: Surrey
Register number: ESB4
District and Subdistrict: 7571B
Entry number: 209


just adding random Hutcheons ... :-)

the Ralph born 1898 South Shields died 1975 Sutton

marriage

Name: Ralph Hutcheon
Spouse Surname: Wilkinson - Margaret J
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1920
Registration district: South Shields
Inferred County: Durham
Volume Number: 10a
Page Number: 1476

children

Richard W Hutcheon 1920 South Shields Durham
* Ralph Hutcheon 1923 South Shields Durham
Margaret Hutcheon 1925 South Shields Durham

* someone here at genesreunited has that person in their tree


I wonder whether Ralph and Lily are siblings, their mother (re) married before 1911 ...


there is a family of Hutcheons in South Shields in 1901

but no Ralph

William Hutcheon 36
Eleanor Hutcheon 34
Margaret Hutcheon 14
Eleanor M Hutcheon 8
Willhemina Hutcheon 5
Mary L Hutcheon 2

PM's from Carol:

'Thanks for reply. I have the birth cert. of her son Ralph, and have applied for her death certificate hoping it will give info. Then I will apply for her birth cert. I was just hoping I could perhaps find out her parents, but assume I will need the birth cert.for this confirmation.

Re. Nellie Hutcheon:

'I don't think this lady is related . I have only heard my aunt refer to Lily calling someone Olive. Also that she had an older brother. '

Hi all
Sorry for confusion. I will restart . I have a birth cert. for Ralph Hutcheon, born 1939 in K.O.T. and Lily Hutcheon was a single mother at the time. This is known fact. She was the only Lily Hutcheon I could find in Kingston at that time, and on Ancestry it stated she was born in South Shields 1902. From this I then saw Ralph Hutcheon, born 1898 in South Shields, who died in Carshalton/Sutton in 1975, and I wondered if he could be her older brother. Again I knew for fact that she and her brother use to meet in Kingston on Thames. Ralph, born 1939, is my Uncle, now living in the U.S.A. My elderly Aunt in the U.S.A said she use to have her sister Olive with her in Kingston, who she thought may have been a twin, but I am thinking maybe that was her nickname for her, as I came across twins Lily and Mary born Sth Shields in 1902, but I cannot find anything else on Mary to confirm if she lived in Kingston around 1938. My aunt in the USA cannot remember anything else about Lily.
Hope this helps everyone who has been kind enough to respond.
Pat

I've had a lovely PM from Pat saying she has now been in touch with a family member of the South Shields Hutcheons and is very pleased.

( I would normally have gone further and tried to track descendants better but I was so tired last night ! I thought I would come back to it today but Pat did it herself, the good old telephone directory )

the only thing Pat ...

'on Ancestry it stated she was born in South Shields 1902'

it doesn't actually say that -your- Lily Hutcheon who had son Ralph was born in 1902 in South Shields ... it says that -a- Lily Hutcheon was born in 1902 in South Shields

all the surrounding facts ( we found the same things you found ) make it very likely indeed that they were the same person

I used Lily 1902's birthdate to search the deaths index for the names Mary and Olive

Pat will probably have found the key to her mystery with the gentleman she is now in touch with but sometimes it is hard to resist

here is a possibly interesting person ( out of very few matching results )

Name: Olive Lilian Harris
> Birth Date: 23 Jul 1902
Date of Registration: May 1985
Age at Death: 82
> Registration district: Sutton
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume: 15
Page: 333

these are the births in that quarter for the name Olive Lil*

Births Sep 1902
Brown Olive Lillie Kingston 2a 376
Driscoll Olive Lilian Axminster 5b 6
Emmott Olive Lilian Cardiff 11a 341
Kelly Olive Lilian M Hackney 1b 408
Wells Olive Lily Richmond, S. 2a 459
WOOD Olive Lilian Epsom 2a 11

there's no match with marriages 1927 to 1967 to Harris ... could have been a second marriage ...

what about this ??!! there's a brother Ralph

1901

WILSON, William Head Married M 37 1864 Newsagent
Walker
Northumberland VIEW
WILSON, Mary Wife Married F 33 1868
London VIEW
WILSON, Margaret Daughter Single F 12 1889
Hebburn
Durham VIEW
WILSON, William Son M 10 1891
Hebburn
Durham VIEW
WILSON, James Son M 8 1893
Hebburn
Durham VIEW
WILSON, Frederick Son M 6 1895
Hebburn
Durham VIEW
WILSON, John Son M 4 1897
Hebburn
Durham VIEW
WILSON, Ralph Son M 2 1899
Hebburn
Durham VIEW
BORRETT, Annie Servant Single F 20 1881 Housemaid Domestic
Deptford
Durham VIEW
WILSON, Eleanor Daughter Single F 1 1900
Hebburn
Durham VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piece:
4744 Folio:
54 Page:
44 Registration District:
South Shields

Civil Parish:
Hebburn Municipal Borough:
Address:
121, Ellison Street, Hebburn County:
Durham



1911

WILSON, William Head Married M 46 1865 Insurance Agent North Shields Northumberland VIEW
WILSON, Mary Wife Married
22 years F 43 1868 Wife Deptford VIEW
WILSON, James Son Single M 18 1893 Apprentice Fitter Hebburn VIEW
WILSON, Frederick Son Single M 16 1895 Apprentice Carpenter Durham Hebburn VIEW
WILSON, John Son M 14 1897 Platers Marker Durham Hebburn VIEW
WILSON, Ralph Son M 12 1899 School Durham Hebburn VIEW
WILSON, Eleanor Daughter F 10 1901 School Durham Hebburn VIEW
>>>>WILSON, Lilly Daughter F 8 1903 Durham Hebburn VIEW
>>>>WILSON, Olive Daughter F 8 1903 Durham Hebburn VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
30380 Reference:
RG14PN30380 RG78PN1746 RD556 SD2 ED32 SN184

Registration District:
South Shields Sub District:
Jarrow Enumeration District:
32 Parish:
Hebburn

Address:
127 Ellison St Hebburn County:
Durham

you dunnit ... I was working my way through Ralphs living with Lil*s and had not caught that one !

if I may I just can't read census copies like that 1901 ...

1901 in South Shields

WILSON, William Head Married M 37 1864 Newsagent Walker Northumberland
WILSON, Mary Wife Married F 33 1868 London
WILSON, Margaret Daughter Single F 12 1889 Hebburn Durham
WILSON, William Son M 10 1891 Hebburn Durham
WILSON, James Son M 8 1893 Hebburn Durham
WILSON, Frederick Son M 6 1895 Hebburn Durham
WILSON, John Son M 4 1897 Hebburn Durham
> WILSON, Ralph Son M 2 1899 Hebburn Durham
BORRETT, Annie Servant Single F 20 1881 Housemaid Domestic Deptford Durham
WILSON, Eleanor Daughter Single F 1 1900 Hebburn Durham

and interestingly one of Ralph's sons possibly the one Pat is in touch with married a Wilson I think but it was an also known as

why Wilson ?

no Mary Hutcheon born around 1868

she must have been already married ... married 22 years but not to Wilson ? ;)

Marriages Dec 1888 ?
CUNNINGHAM Mary South Shields 10a 1105
HENDERSON William S. Shields 10a 1105
HUTCHEON William S.Shields 10a 1105 S
O'Neill Rose Hannah S.Shields 10a 1105

Margaret in 1901 household

Births Jun 1889
Hutcheon Margaret S. Shields 10a 807

one reason or another the children were registered as Hutcheon
:-S

they are Wilson in 1891 too

1891


WILSON, William Head Married M 26 1865 Assurance Agent
North Shields
Northumberland VIEW
WILSON, Mary Wife Married F 22 1869
Deptford
London VIEW
WILSON, Margaret C Daughter F 2 1889
Hebburn
Durham VIEW
WILSON, William Son M 0 (5M) 1891
Hebburn
Durham VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piece:
4169 Folio:
75 Page:
18 Registration District:
South Shields

Civil Parish:
Hedworth Monkton and Yarrow Municipal Borough:
Address:
54, Cuthbert Street, Hedworth Monkton And Yarrow, Hebburn County:
Durham


Births Jun 1889 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hutcheon Margaret S. Shields 10a 807


Births Dec 1890 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hutcheon William Todd S. Shields 10a 793

maybe William Wilson (Hutcheon) was born Hutcheon


Births Jun 1864 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HUTCHON William Tynemouth 10b 148


then his mother married - maybe this one

Marriages Sep 1865 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>Hutchison Margaret Newcastle T. 10b 202
Meek Elizabeth Newcastle T. 10b 202
Turner Alfred Newcastle T. 10b 202
>>>>Wilson Alexander Newcastle T. 10b 202



1871

WILSON, Alexand Head M 35 1836 Scotland VIEW
WILSON, Margret Wife F 37 1834 Northumberland VIEW
>>>>WILSON, William Son M 7 1864 Northumberland VIEW
WILSON, John Son M 5 1866 Northumberland VIEW
MCLAUTHIE, David Lodger M 25 1846 Scotland VIEW
THOMPSON, Jeskept Lodger M 23 1848 Scotland VIEW
TAYLOR, William Lodger M 32 1839 Scotland VIEW
MELLOW, Robert Lodger M 22 1849 Scotland VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piece:
5044 Folio:
71 Page:
2 Registration District:
South Shields

Civil Parish:
Hedworth Monkton & Jarrow Municipal Borough:
Address:
Colling Street, Hedworth Monkton & Jarrow County:
Durham


1881

WILSON, Alex Head Married M 45 1836 Cabinetmaker
Scotland VIEW
WILSON, Margret Wife Married F 48 1833
Walker
Northumberland VIEW
>>>>>WILSON, William Son Single M 16 1865 Barber
North Shields
Northumberland VIEW
WILSON, John Son Single M 15 1866 Black Smith
Northumberland
Northumberland VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piece:
5026 Folio:
51 Page:
31 Registration District:
South Shields

Civil Parish:
Hedworth and Monkton and Jarrow Municipal Borough:
Address:
22, Ellison St, Hedworth And Monkton And Jarrow County:
Durham

William Hutchen
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

birth: 05 Apr 1864 Christ Church,? Tynemouth,? Northumberland,? England
christening: 27 Apr 1864 Tynemouth,? Northumberland,? England
residence: 1864 Tynemouth,? Northumberland,? England
parents: Hutchen,? Margaret Hutchen


name: William Hutchen
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 27 Apr 1864
baptism/christening place: Tynemouth, Northumberland, England
birth date: 05 Apr 1864
birthplace: Christ Church, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England
father's name: Hutchen
mother's name: Margaret Hutchen
indexing project (batch) number: C15597-4
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1068908

Hi everyone
The name on Ralph's birth and adoption certificates both show Lily Hutcheon being the Single Mother. No father is mentioned and therefore I can only assume she is the one from South Shields. The gentleman I am seeing confirms his fathers sister was named Lily living in Kingston on Thames and also had a twin sister they knew as Lolly! I feel fairly certain I have the right person but my meeting hopefully will confirm more.
I knew the twin sister was also living in Kingston around 1938, but what her real name is I don't know.
Thank you all again. Will update once I know more.
Pat

Sadly not seeing Richard W Hutcheon as his carer advised him not to meet a stranger, which I can appreciate.However extremely disappointed as I had hoped to see photos of his father, Ralph,which may have been similar resemblance to my adopted uncle Ralph. He told me his father had a sister Lily in Kingston, and she had a twin. All this is fact as my elderly aunt, the daughter of my grandparents who adopted Ralph at a very young age, had met them in Kingston. I am sure I have the right family. Mr Hutcheon also confirmed his father was Ralph and his mother was Margaret Hutcheon (neeWilkinson). He has a cousin/niece who he sees named Pat. Mentioned she was the daughter of his sister and lives in High Wycombe. Would be wonderful if I could contact her. I would just love to be able to see a photo of the original Ralph Hutcheon born in 1898 as my 86 yr old aunt said she had seen him in Kingston when she was very young.
I really do appreciate everyone's help.