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hi Irene, still not sure whether you've twigged here

the Fred Irwin who was in the Canadian Expeditionary Forces does indeed seem to be your Fred, he gave his mother as Ann Fearon of the right place, and Ann Irwin married Fearon

it's just that for some reason he enrolled twice, and on the first one Ancestry's transcriber has read 'F Irwin' as 'H Irwin'

I think it's the right records for the right person, if you're looking for Fred who was the son of Ann Irwin who married Fearon

are you looking for what happened to him after that ? you haven't given any indication of your connection

the good news is that he seems to have survived the war, he is not shown in the Virtual War Memorial for Canada

http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/collections/virtualmem


the other birth you referred to for info

Births Dec 1870
Irwin Emma Glaister Whitehaven 10b 568

hmm

Marriages Dec 1897
Farquharson William Thomas Whitehaven 10b 1097
Irwin Emma Glaister Whitehaven 10b 1097

her father was a Farquharson and she married a Farquharson ?


1891

Name: Emma Irwin
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1871
Relation: Confectioner
Gender: Female
Where born: Seapcate, Cumberland, England

Civil parish: Cleator
Town: Cleator Moor
County/Island: Cumberland
Registration district: Whitehaven

Alex Farquarson 50 bread maker
Jane Farquarson 54
Sarah Ann Farquarson 24
Margaret L Farquarson 23
Emma Irwin 20
Alice McGlone 17


in 1881 she is in the same household as Freddy

Name: Emma G. Irwin
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1871
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William Irwin
Mother's Name: Christian Irwin
Gender: Female
Where born: Ponsonby, Cumberland, England


but in 1871 she is shown as their granddaughter

William Irwin 42 farmer of 44 acres
Christian Irwin 42
Ann Irwin 21 farmer's daughter
Margret M Irwin 19
John Irwin 16
William Irwin 14
Thomas Irwin 12
Curwen W Irwin 10
Elizabeth Irwin 8
Joseph Irwin 6
Annas Irwin 3
George Irwin 2 all other children show as children of William and Christian
Emma Irwin 5 Months granddaughter


so Alexander Farquharson took in Emma ( his daughter with Ann Irwin ) when she grew up ?


anyway ... are you wanting to find out what happened to Fred after WWI ?

I see the source of the stupidity, Ancestry as usual

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1086

Canada, Soldiers of the First World War, 1914-1918

there is never any need to pay for access to these records, they are available from the Canadian government and as we can see the index there is more accurate and reliable

I do not pay for access to those records at Ancestry but I see that when I search using exact birthdate of 1882 it has

H Irwin

and it has

Fred Irwin

although it doesn't seem to have 1882 for his birthdate ...


pure Ancestry stupidity, nothing else

A big thank you to all that has worked on this for me.
I do think that you may be right that they attached the wrong paperwork.
Through a relation, it is said that Fred, born 1880 and Emma Glaister Irwin
born 1871, the latter to Alexander Farquharson , a Scottish baker with a wife and children who employed Ann Irwin as a Confectioner in his bakers shop in Cleator Moor.



Once again thank you to all

Irene Cooper

no, wait, wait

the details on the two are different and if they are filled out by the men they are in very different hands

same date of birth same mother

one is a machinist, one a clerk

one 7 years in 2nd Cameron Highlanders in Africa, one 7 months in ?th rifles of Canada

but the later one could be referring to time served after the 1914 enlistment and before the 1915 enlistment, the most recent service at the time

yes I'm still convinced it is the same person, the thing that looks like 'H' in handwriting is definitely really an 'F'

for some reason he enrolled and served 7 months and then re-enrolled the next year

Weirdly there is a H Fearon born in the right Q in the right area in 1882.

just proves you can make anything fit if you wanted to.


T x

the Canadian papers for Fred Irwin do give Ann Fearon

hang on there are two

IRWIN, FRED 29/07/1882 781580 - 23 Sept 1914
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc007/412819a.gif

IRWIN, FRED 29/07/1882 21712 - 28 Dec 1915
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc007/412827a.gif

they are both for the same person

there is no twin

it's just that the answer to 'what is your name' on the first one looks like 'H Irwin' but it is clearly recorded in the Canadian archives as Fred Irwin


what a dog's breakfast

it does seem to be the right Fred who has got his birthdate wrong

son of Ann Irwin who married Fearon

Mr H Fearon???

Sept Q 1882 - Fearon Henry Wigton 10b 524


T x

:-D

LOL Chrissie...

So i could be right... they have simply attached the wrong paperwork to their person.

Gotta love the guessing games.


T x

found Fred in 1911 census.
Baird Barracks. Bangalore.
Name Fred Irwin
Condition / Years Married / Years
Gender
Age 29
Estimated Year of Birth 1882
Occupation None
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Cumberland Seaxeale
Military Rank Private 2 Cameron Highlanders.

but I've found a missing link

IRWIN, FRED 29/07/1882 21712

http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc007/412819a.gif

the things it really helps to know

the attestation papers are >>> Canadian

there is no H* Irwin with a matching birthdate there

I suspect someone has misread the handwritten 'F Irwin' on Fred's papers which looks like 'H Irwin'


edit to add the search form for CEF attestation papers

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-100.01-e.php

search for Fred Irwin to get the two attestation papers ( see post below )

I think there is maybe a cross match of data somewhere..... it's either the details of the births/twins. or (as is more likely) incorrect military records have been attached to the wrong person?

I do wonder if the military records this person ahs found do relate to Freddy, but that maybe that THIS Freddy doesn't relate to the family concerned.

There are no twin births in Cumberland for the name Irwin in 3Q 1882, that is a fact.

We need to OP to come back and give more info i think.

I still do wonder if we simply just have the wrong records being attached just because 'they look like they fit'

T x

:-D

that's what I posted :-)

I also find no attestation papers at Ancestry for Fred* Irwin matching these facts

OK, don't know whom H Irwin is, but they're not a twin of Freddy?

1881 RG number: RG11 Piece: 5194 Folio: 66 Page: 3
Reg. District: Whitehaven Sub District: Egremont
Address: The Villas, Gosforth County: Cumberland
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IRWIN, William Head Married M 52 1829 Retired Farmer St Johns Cumberland
IRWIN, Christian Wife Married F 51 1830 Ponsonby Cumberland
IRWIN, Ann Daughter Single F 30 1851 Ponsonby Cumberland
IRWIN, Annas Daughter Single F 13 1868 Scholar Ponsonby Cumberland
IRWIN, William Son Single M 22 1859 Ag Lab Ponsonby Cumberland
IRWIN, Curwen W Son Single M 20 1861 Joiner Ponsonby Cumberland
IRWIN, George Son Single M 12 1869 Scholar Ponsonby Cumberland
IRWIN, Emma G Daughter Single F 10 1871 Scholar Ponsonby Cumberland
IRWIN, Freddy Grand Son Single M 1 1880 Cleator Cumberland

This is Ann Irwin living with her parents, looks like Freddy was base born?


T x

:-D

1881


Name: Freddy Irwin
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relation: Grandson
Gender: Male
Where born: Cleator, Cumberland, England

Civil parish: Gosforth
County/Island: Cumberland
Registration district: Whitehaven

William Irwin 52
Christian Irwin 51
Ann Irwin 30
Annas Irwin 13
William Irwin 22
Curwen W. Irwin 20
George Irwin 12
Emma G. Irwin 10
Freddy Irwin 1


so who is this mystery 'H' ?

and how did Freddy born 1882 appear in the 1881 census ?


Births Sep 1879
Irwin Annie Mary Whitehaven 10b 595
> Irwin Frederick Whitehaven 10b 642
Irwin Lizzie Isabel Whitehaven 10b 607

I've answered the question as asked rather than analysing the details of the question.

I shall take a squint now.


T x

WayneTracey that was my next move :-) ( the marriage )

I just thought it odd that such sketchy information was given ...

the births must have been registered as some other surname ?

there are these two births ( Cleator is in Whitehaven registration district )

Births Sep 1882
Bone Frederick Albert Whitehaven 10b 642
Wilkinson Frederick Dixon Whitehaven 10b 649

but no other birth for either surname in the same quarter

where is 'H' in 1891 ?

all very odd

Chrissie

I have solved the mystery..... i think this person just hasn't gone back far enough in the census's.

T x

:-D

why initial, why not full names ?

hm, why can't I find a Fred* Irwin born after March quarter in 1882 ?

can you give some verified and full information ?

who is Ann Irwin that you are trying to establish a connection with ... did you mean Ann Fearon ?

take a deep breath and start over maybe :-)

The marriage....

Marriages Dec 1890
Fearon Isaac Bootle 10b 1085
IRWIN Ann Bootle 10b 1085

Simples...

T x

:-D

Looks like mum remarried?

1891 RG number: RG12 Piece: 4320 Folio: 19 Page: 20
Reg. District: Bootle Sub District: Muncaster
Address: Taylors Cottages, South Parade, Drigg & Carleton, Seascale County: Cumberland
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FEARON, Isaac Head Married M 37 1854 Locomotive Engineer Cleator Cumberland
FEARON, Ann Wife Married F 39 1852 Ponsonby Cumberland
IRWIN, Fred Stepson M 11 1880 Scholar Cleator Cumberland