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Hello,

I'm not asking anyone to actually pay credits to take a look but please could someone check on ScotlandsPeople if there are any possible results on the census for a John Melville who was a farmer sometime around 1840-1870. His son Samuel says he was a farmer on his wedding certificate in 1870, but I know nothing else about the family. I can't find Samuel's birth in 1845, all I have to go on is one census result from 1871 where he says he was born in Scotland.

kind regards,
Elissa

Where was Samuel married?

Catherine

In Hulme, Manchester.

1861
Name: John Melville
Age: 58
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1803
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Grace Melville
Gender: Male
Where born: Kildonan, Sutherlandshire
Registration Number: 52
Registration district: Kildonan
Civil parish: Kildonan
County: Sutherland
Address: West Helmsdale
Occupation: Farmer
ED: 2
Household schedule number: 35
Line: 12
Roll: CSSCT1861_7
Household Members: Name Age
John Melville 58
Grace Melville 53
Robertina Melville 19
Mary Macpherson 40


Source Citation: Parish: Kildonan; ED: 2; Page: 7; Line: 12; Roll: CSSCT1861_7; Year: 1861.


Source Citation: Parish: Persie; ED: 3; Page: 1; Line: 12; Roll: CSSCT1861_51; Year: 1861.

1851 but not with a son samuel
Name: John Melville
Age: 48
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1803
Relationship: Head
Spouse's Name: Grace Melville
Gender: Male
Where born: Cath, Sutherland
Parish Number: 52
Civil parish: Kildonan
County: Sutherland
Address: West Helmsdale
Occupation: Cooper
ED: 3
Page: 16 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 51
Line: 1
Roll: CSSCT1851_12
Household Members: Name Age
John Melville 48
Grace Melville 46
Hugh Melville 18
Isabella Melville 14
Jane Melville 16
Roberta Melville 11


Source Citation: Parish: Kildonan; ED: 3; Page: 1; Line: 16; Roll: 374; Year: 1851.

Is this his marriage?

Groom's Name: Samuel Melville
Groom's Birth Date: 1845
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age: 25
Bride's Name: Ellen Emma Turner
Bride's Birth Date: 1845
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age: 25
Marriage Date: 25 Dec 1870
Marriage Place: Hulme (Near Manchester), Lancashire, England
Groom's Father's Name: John Melville
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name: John Falton Turner
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status:
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status:
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I04895-1
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 2113139
Reference Number: 170

Yes Marc, that's the correct marriage.

Thank you for that Shirley, it's strange there is no Samuel, but he could have been somewhere else e.g. other family members.

Just out of interest he gave all three of his sons the middle name Gordon. Mother's maiden name maybe?

I can't see Samuel on the 1871 census - only this man? Was he calling himself John?

Name: John Mellville
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ellen E Mellville
Gender: Male
Where born: Scotland
Civil parish: Cheetham
Ecclesiastical parish: Cathedral Church
Town: Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Manchester
Sub-registration district: Cheetham
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household schedule number: 372
Piece: 4061
Folio: 35
Page Number: 63
Household Members: Name Age
John Mellville 25 Clerk
Ellen E Mellville 25 Barmaid, b. Derby



Can you give us some details on his children please i.e names and places and years of birth?

These his sons please?

Births Dec 1871 Melville Robert Gordon Manchester 8d 338

Births Mar 1875 Melville Horace Gordon Chorlton 8c 803

Births Mar 1876 MELVILLE Matthew Gordon Chester Le S 10a 571

So Ellen was remarried and widowed in 1891?

Name: Horace Melville
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Helen Higginbottom
Gender: Male
Where born: Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Ashton Under Lyne
Ecclesiastical parish: St Stephen
Town: Audenshaw
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Ashton Under Lyne
Sub-registration district: Audenshaw
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3281
Folio: 22
Page Number: 37
Household Members: Name Age
Helen Higginbottom 45
Robert G Melville 18
Horace Melville 16
Willie Higginbottom 13
Ethel Higginbottom 10
Alfred Higginbottom 7
Benjamin Hartley 65

Re-married the same year as Matthew was born.

Marriages Dec 1876
Higginbottom Edward Ashton 8d 727
Holland Abel Ashton 8d 727
Melville Ellen Emma Ashton 8d 727
Rimmer Ellen Ashton 8d 727


Was John or Samuel on his death registration please?

Have you eliminate this birth please?

JOHN MELVILLE
Birth: 09 FEB 1846 Clyne, Sutherland, Scotland
Parents:
Father: ROBERT MELVILLE Family
Mother: HENRIETTA GORDON
Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date

Maybe not then as that Robert is a shoemaker? Although not uncommon for tradesmen also to be crofters in these villages to supplement their income.

1851

Name: Robert Melville
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1816
Relationship: Head
Spouse's Name: Henrietta Melville
Gender: Male
Where born: Clyne, Sutherland
Parish Number: 45
Civil parish: Clyne
Town: Brora
County: Sutherland
Address: Village Of Brora
Occupation: Shoemaker (master 1m
ED: 4
Page: 13 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 57
Line: 8
Roll: CSSCT1851_11
Household Members: Name Age
Robert Melville 35
Henrietta Melville 26
John Melville 3
Ann Melville 1

1871 - Robert is still a shoemaker and no John living with them.

Name: Henrietta Meville
Age: 47
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1824
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : Robert Meville
Gender: Female
Where born: Loth
Registration Number: 45
Registration district: Clyne
Civil parish: Clyne
County: Sutherland
Address: Commerce St
Occupation: Shoemaker Wife
ED: 4
Household schedule number: 20
Line: 2
Roll: CSSCT1871_9
Household Members: Name Age
Robert Meville 55
Henrietta Meville 47
William Meville 23
Robert Meville 16
Mary Meville 14
Eppie Meville 11
Andrew Meville 7
Lery Meville 5

Do you have the birth cert for the Matthew born 1876? Chester le Street is quite a way from the Manchester area and he is not with Ellen and the other children in 1881.

If Ellen married soon after the death of Samuel,then she could have been short of money ,also paying for his funeral.Have you thought about poor relief.Might have said where he came from.1845 is before civil reg.and he might not have been bapts.



Ellie
Edit -there are loads of John Melville in the IGI's
3 Samuels and none of the years are near your Samuel.

1871
Could this be a Brother
Name: Robert Melville
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Scotland
Civil parish: Clitheroe
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: Clitheroe
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Clitheroe
Sub-registration district: Clitheroe
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Household schedule number: 219
Piece: 4165
Folio: 24
Page Number: 45
Household Members: Name Age
Betty Bennett 74
William Bennett 13
Isaac Robinson 40
Thurston Hastain 28
Robert Melville 25


View
Original
Record

View Original Image

1871
Name: John Mellville
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ellen E Mellville
Gender: Male
Where born: Scotland
Civil parish: Cheetham
Ecclesiastical parish: Cathedral Church
Town: Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Manchester
Sub-registration district: Cheetham
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household schedule number: 372
Piece: 4061
Folio: 35
Page Number: 63
Household Members: Name Age
John Mellville 25
Ellen E Mellville 25

Ellie - that 1871 census is the same one that I posted on 29 September. I think we need Elissa to come back and tell us if that is the correct family.

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner, thank you for all your hard work!

As far as I know:
The 1871 census that lists John Melville with Ellen E, I believe that to be Samuel.

Samuel was the name on his marriage in 1870, and on his death certificate in 1874. He had three sons, Robert Gordon 1871, George William Gordon 1873 and Horace Gordon 1st Qtr 1875. I'm not aware of a Matthew. He isn't with them on later censuses.

Ellen Emma remarried to Edward Higginbottom before being widowed again. She had three further children.

That baptism for a John son of Robert and Henrietta looks promising, especially due to the name Gordon and the fact he called his first son Robert.

Thank you for all your help, I hadn't seen those other baptisms and census. If you have any other questions please ask.

Thanks for coming back to your thread Elissa.

You could try checking out the birth (if it is available) on Scotlandspeople for the John that was the son of Robbert and Henrietta. Shame statutory registration didn't begin in Scotland until 1855 and some of the parish registers don't give much information. You could be lucky and find that he was christened John Samuel?

May also be worth looking at the marriage record for Robert and Henrietta as these sometimes give the father's names and occupations.

I also wonder if Matthew could be the son of the Robert Melville that Ellie found? His age fits to be the brother of the John in the census with Robert and Henrietta.

The deaths of Robert and Henrietta will give you there parents' names if the informant knew the details.