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I found this household in 1901 in Bethnal Green ... very possibly the parents of the infant Alice who died in Bethnal Green in 1905
Charles E Guynn 35 Gwynn walking stick maker born Clerkenwell
Alice Guynn 30
George H Guynn 2
May A Guynn 3/12
in 1881 he is an Industrial School Boy in Dartford
Births Mar 1867
Gwynn Charles Edward Clerkenwell 1b 665
... of course I am thinking he could be a brother of the 1911 James Gwynn Sr ...
in 1871 in St Giles in the Fields ?
Charles Guynn 25 surname has been corrected by an Ancestry user 2010 ... gun smith
Elizabeth Guynn 24
Elizabeth Guynn 4
Charles Guynn 2
Charles Curno 13
but no sign of a brother James ...
... but 1871 in St Giles in the Fields
James Guynn 37 Gwynn ostrich feather boa? manufacturer
Emma Guynn 35
Rose Guynn 10
James Guynn 6 born St Andrews Holborn
Rute Guynn 2 Kate
Deaths Dec 1877
GWYNN James 44 St. Giles 1b 395
cannot find births of those children under any spelling or a marriage for the parents
were they not married and Emma left and married under her assumed name ?
Marriages Sep 1874
Alderton John William Bethnal Green 1c 690
GUYNN Emma Bethnal Green 1c 690
Huderson Thomas James Bethnal Green 1c 690 no such name ... Henderson ?
Taylor Jane Bethnal Green 1c 690
I can't find her or the children in 1881
what I'm wondering ... if the 1911 James Gwynn Sr's parents were not married and his surname was his mother's ... he might have married under that surname although he used Gwynn ...
here is the couple in 1861 in St Pancras
James Gwynn 26 ostrich feather mf
Emma Gwynn 24
James S Gwynn 9 MO born Bloomsbury died 1921 St Pancras
... not making a lot of sense ...
no birth to match that child
could be a marriage and just our luck ... two Emmas ...
Marriages Sep 1859
Copplestone Matthews St James 1a 645
Gwynn James St James 1a 645
Lartham Emma Maria St James 1a 645
Winstanley Emma Matilda St. James 1a 645
omg I just looked at the Q3 1860 image looking for this entry
Births Sep 1860
GRIN*AM Rose Pancras 1b 44
which is not on the page for Grin* so I tried the page for Gwy*
and look what ... in Q3 1861 ...
Gwynn James Samuel Holborn 1b 461
grrrrr transcribed as James Samuel Gwyn[N?] [4_]61
but the James Gwynn in the household in 1871 clearly says age 6
now oh my, 1881
Name: James Gurford [James Gwynn]
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851[1860]
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Gurford
Gender: Male
Where born: London, London, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Islington
James Gurford 30 cabman
Elizabeth Gurford 19
James Gurford 7 mo
it is purely a mistranscription for the name and age, but the age says 20, so does the Ancestry user know something ?
here they are in 1891 in Islington
James Guynn 32 cab driver again it says Gwynn
Elizabeth Guynn 28
James Guynn 10
Elizabeth Guynn 8
Maud Guynn 6
Kate Guynn 4
William Guynn 2
Annie Guynn 2/12
and in 1901 in Islington
James Gwynn 41 hackney carriage driver
Elizth Gwynn 38
James Gwynn 20
Elizth Gwynn 18
Maud Gwynn 16
Kate Gwynn 40 14 not 40
Willie Gwynn 12
Annie Gwynn 10
John Gwynn 8
Ethel Gwynn 4
how is it that what seems the same couple have
son James Samuel 1860 in the 1861 census who goes on to have a family but is not in the 1871 census
son James abt 1865 in the 1871 census who can't be found after that but looks like the 1911 James Gwynn Sr
? they can't be the same person because
James 1860 and wife 'Elsibeth', daugher Ethel, etc., are in the 1911 census
so I am thinking that the 1859 James + Emma marriage with the James Samuel son is one couple
and the James and Emma in the 1871 census with son James c1865 is another couple
- edit - no that is nonsense, James was an ostrich feather manufacturer in both censuses !
- so can't be what I said next : 'and that couple was not married and that son James is our 1911 James Gwynn Sr and was registered under another surname'
now if we go back to
1871 in St Giles in the Fields ?
Charles Guynn 25 surname has been corrected by an Ancestry user 2010 ... gun smith
Elizabeth Guynn 24 possibly Eliza Curno 1845 St Giles Middlesex
Elizabeth Guynn 4
Charles Guynn 2
Charles Curno 13 ... wife's brother
Curno .......... ( to clarify because of this typeface it is CURNO )
1901
Name: James Curro [James Curno]
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Kate Curro
Gender: Male
Where born: Limehouse, London, England
Civil parish: Rotherhithe
James Curro 38 blacksmith
Kate Curro 28 born Ware ... her name is corrected by a different person
the Ancestry user says
Marriages Dec 1897
Albany Kate Ware 3a 798
Curno James Ware 3a 798
but in 1911 that Kate is in Ware with three children but no James ... and that James has not died ... and she living with a Thomas Chapman aged 36 ...
I think this is our solution to the 1911 James Gwynn Jr
he was a son of Elizabeth Curno who seems not to have married Charles Gwynn but to have had children with him after the birth of James ... under whatever name ...
and he ended up in the household of James and Emma Gwynn in the 1871 census, who must be related to Charles Gwynn Sr somehow
- edit - the above does not really make sense ... I think the James son of James and Emma in 1861 and 1871 just has to be the same one in spite of the age 6 in 1871 ...
this is all only useful if the 1911 James Gwynn Jr is our James ... which I think he is
given the age of the James Gwynn Sr whose death I posted earlier
I wonder ...
Births Mar 1857 - died 1870 Whitechapel
Curno James Stepney 1c 590
Births Mar 1860 - no death
CURNO James Stepney 1c 529
- edit - no he seems to be with parents Thomas and Jane in Limehouse in 1861 and 1871
2 people have the 1860 James Curno in their trees here at genesreunited, one of whom is the person who corrected the name at Ancestry
I have very much not got this sorted out in my head yet but I am just putting it all here because at least some of it seems to lead somewhere :-)
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Thank you everyone for your kind help.
Angela
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