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Hi, I've hit a brick wall with my mother's great grandfather John Kennedy. All we know is that he was born in Ireland(presumably sometime between 1800 and 1835 ,as he fathered John in 1850) and was a soldier stationed at Stirling Castle around the time his son, John Jospeh Kennedy was born in 1850. According to the son, John Joseph's military records and marriage certificate, Father John was also a soldier and is deceased by JJ's enlistment into the army in 1865(in fact by the 1861 census). His mother, Margaret, was remarried by 1867 and is listed as next of kin, Margaret Appleford. I've located the mother later in Woolwich with ther new husband but can't find anything more about the father John.
Don't know when he was born but presume between 1800 and 1835
Don't know which part of Ireland he was born in.
Don't know when he died or where, but must have been between 1849 and 1865.
Don't know which part of the army he served with other than he was at stirling in 1850.
Margaret's maiden name was O'Neil, born abt 1833, in Ireland, as was her second husband John Appleford.
Any ideas?
Thank you in advance :-)

Edit,. just updated a few things in the original post

Last one first.......Margaret's father's name (if known) will be on the record of her marriage to Appleford

1881 for INFO

Name: Margaret Appleford
Age: 48
Estimated birth year: abt 1833
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: John
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland

Civil parish: Woolwich
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 17 Chesnut PA
Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: Shirt Maker

Registration district: Woolwich
Sub-registration district: Woolwich Dockyard
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
John Appleford 47 born IRELAND
Margaret Appleford 48
Wm.G. Appleford 9 born FLEETWOOD, Lancs (Image shows second initial to be J)
Mary Ann Appleford 7
John Kennedy 31
Margaret Real 67 Lodger, b. Ireland.......image looks like O'neal

Here you are.............Margaret's maiden name is on this

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1872
APPLEFORD William John Poulton-le-Fylde Blackpool O'NEIL PLF/27/92

Brilliant thank you :-)
So does that indicate her maiden name was O'Neil?

1861

Name: John Kennedy
Age: 12
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relationship: Son
Mother's Name: Margret
Gender: Male
Where born: Stirling
Registration Number: 644/4
Registration district: Calton
Civil parish: Glasgow St John
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 352
ED: 47
Household schedule number: 8
Line: 11
Roll: CSSCT1861_102
Household Members: Name Age
Mrs Margret Kennedy 28 Head, Sewing Machine Worker, b. Ireland
John Kennedy 12
Margret Smith 1 6 Mo Daughter (says b. Cotton - think this should be Calton?)
Mrs Oniel 48 Boarder, b. Yorkshire

Source Citation: Parish: Glasgow St John; ED: 47; Page: 2; Line: 13; Roll CSSCT1861_102; Year: 1861.



If Margaret was unable to work when she was pregnant with her daughter, she may have claimed Poor Relief. These records are held at The Mitchell Library in Glasgow and are indexed. They are not available online. They can prove very useful when researching Irish ancestors as many of the records contain details of the exact places of their birth in Ireland, parents names and in Margaret's case would possible contain details of John's parentage and the place of their marriage.


It may also be worth checking on Scotlandspeople for a death for John although Statutory Registration did not begin until 1855 in Scotland.

Cheers. though this Margret Smith confuses the heck out of me. I had her on a print out of that census but couldn't access an image of the census so was unsure if she was a daughter or what. She's certainly not with Margaret in 1881 at her new home in woolwich, and Margaret is still called Kennedy so no other marriage I presume. Was it usual to name an illegitimate child after the father's family rather than the mother's?.
I'm afraid I'm not rich enough to try Scotlandspeople :-(
I'd like to say a big thank you to you all on here, I'm most impressed with the help given and wish I'd coughed up the membership fee ages ago :-)

It is possible the young Margaret's father was also present when her birth was registered. In which case she could be registered with his surname If her parents were unmarried (which it looks like as her Mum is still using the Kennedy surname) then her birth will be indexed under both Smith and Kennedy. It is possible that the child died before Margaret moved south.

Peter - the only "proof" that you have of John Kennedy's existence is from his son's marriage certificate?

Maybe I am being over cautious here, but it was not uncommon for "fatherless sons" to invent a father's name on their marriage certificate for appearances and invariably, in my experience the father has the same name and occupation as themselves!!

Have you found Margaret on the 1851 census yet please?

Ignore that last posting Peter. Here they are (I think) in 1851. John may have been too young when left fatherless and just assumed that his father was John. The place of birth for John is the only thing that makes doubt if this is the correct family.


(I haven't copied all the names below them are there are lots)

1851

Name: Margaret Kennedy
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1831
Relation: Wife
Gender: Female
Where born: Banbridge, Down, Ireland <<<<<<<<<<<<<

Civil parish: Weedon Beck
County/Island: Northamptonshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Daventry
Sub-registration district: Weedon
ED, institution, or vessel: Military Barracks <<<<<<<<<<<<<
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 1
Household Members: Name Age
Mary Barlow 6
George Barlow 4
Alice Barlow 2
Fanny Barlow 3 MO
Edward Carroll 23
Fanny Carroll 21
Samuel Francis 35
Mary Ann Francis 26
Michael Kennedy 30 Soldier, Cpl. Inf. b. Portglenone, Antrim Co
Margaret Kennedy 20
John Kennedy 1 Son, b. DUBLIN

Re John Kennedy's existence. I have John jr's wedding cert dated 1884, which lists his father as John Kennedy, Soldier, Deceased. Apart from that the only "proof" is Margaret's being named Kennedy, and the prevous poster's info re Her maiden name of O'Neil would imply she had married a Kennedy And John jr was born in Stirling not Dublin, according to his military records and census records for him. Also my granny used to say her grandfather was a soldier at Stirling.

I've not got access to the 1851 census here at home as I'm too tight to pay ancestry the full amount every year :-)
Just been looking through my printouts and thought I had one for her in1851 but can't find it. If my memory serves me I think I found her and John jr in Scotland but without John sr who I assumed was away with the army at the time somewhere. I can access the census elsewhere and will try to locate them in 51. You've got me wondering now :-)

I do think that Margaret's maiden surname is O'Neill. Did she have any children from her second marriage please? A birth certificate for one of them would confirm her maiden surname.

I am wondering too, if you confess to being "tight", if you really do have a Scots born ancestor (she chuckles!).

The O'Neil thing comes from the post above by Flick. It's definitely her living in Woolwich in 1881 and her son William Appleford is listed as from Fleetwood Lancs so the connection seems pretty certain. I only learned this yesterday and haven't considered getting birth certs yet, but will :-)

I now have confirmation that Margret's maiden name was O'Neil. She marries John Appleford in 1867 in Calton, Glasgow.
Interestingly I have come across a John Appleford in the 59 Foot, the same regiment John Joseph Kennedy enlisted in at the age of 15 and am wondering if they were already living with John Appleford and maybe he influenced the choice of regiment?
I've found out a lot more about John Joseph's 25 years in the army now and even have pics of the three ships he travelled on.
The HMS Clyde Kingstown to Ceylon in 1867
HMS Malabar Ceylon to Bombay in 1869
and HMS Jumna Bombay to Portsmouth in 1880.
The Malabar is the same ship Dr Watson returned on in the Sherlock Holmes stories.
And on top of the mystery child Margret Smith, someone has suggested that one of the reasons soldiers changed regiments was because they'd started families where they were posted and their regiment was moving. Will have to start looking for Kennedy's in the far east perhaps ;-)

not sure if you have these???

Scotland Marriages, 1561-1910 for John Appleford
Groom's Name: John Appleford
Groom's Birth Date:
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age:
Bride's Name: Margret O'Neil
Bride's Birth Date:
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age:
Marriage Date: 12 Mar 1867
Marriage Place: Calton,Glasgow,Lanark,Scotland
Groom's Father's Name:
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name:
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status:
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status:
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M11921-1
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
Source Film Number: 6035516
Reference Number:


and


Ireland Births and Baptisms, 1620-1881 for Rosanna Appleford
Name: Rosanna Appleford
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date:
Baptism/Christening Place: PALMERSTON, DUB, IRE
Birth Date: 20 Mar 1870
Birthplace: Palmerston, Dub, Ire
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: John Appleford
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Margaret Oneill
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C70252-3
System Origin: Ireland-VR
Source Film Number: 101206
Reference Number: 822

...and maybe a death

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915 about Rosanna Appleford
Name: Rosanna Appleford
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1870
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1880
Age at Death: 10
Registration district: Woolwich
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 586


England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 for Elizabeth Teresa Kennedy
Name: Elizabeth Teresa Kennedy
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 21 Jan 1887
Baptism/Christening Place: St. Mary's Clayton Street, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Northumberland, England
Birth Date: 25 Oct 1861
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Joannis Kennedy
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Margaritae O'Neil
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C01125-4
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1936950
Reference Number: yr 1885-1888 p 91


Teresa

Wow Teresa, thank you very much :-) I had the marriage of John Appleford and Margaret and am going to get a marriage cert to see what it may tell about her father.
The birth in Dublin is new to me and could explain them being missing from the UK census. Certainly looks like the right people.
The Christening of Elizabeth Teresa Kennedy is a baffler? born in 1861 and baptised in 1887..and baptised in the Cathedral directly opposite my house :-) John junior was living and married to Annabella Coffey, in Newcastle by 1887.
So...maybe John jnr took in his sister age 16 and got her baptised?Where was she before that?
Lots more to look into. thank you again.

looks like john and Annabella had some of their own children baptised at the same church.


England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 for Mgt. Isabella Kennedy
Name: Mgt. Isabella Kennedy
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 01 Feb 1885
Baptism/Christening Place: St. Mary's Clayton Street, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Northumberland, England
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Joannis Kennedy
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Annae Bellae Coffee
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I05214-2
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1936949
Reference Number: item 3-4 p 594


Name: Mauda Beatrix Kennedy
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 01 Sep 1897
Baptism/Christening Place: Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Northumberland, England
Birth Date: 02 Aug 1897
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Joannis Kennedy
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Annabellae Coffey Kennedy
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C01127-3
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1936950
Reference Number: yr 1896-1901 p 86


Name: Joannes Jacobus Kennedy
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 29 Apr 1888
Baptism/Christening Place: St. Mary's Clayton Street, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Northumberland, England
Birth Date: 04 Apr 1888
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Joannis Kennedy
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Anna Isabella Coffey Kennedy
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C01125-8
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1936950
Reference Number: yr 1888-1890 p 142


Name: Josephus Kennedy
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 02 Jul 1890
Baptism/Christening Place: St. Mary's Clayton Street, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Northumberland, England
Birth Date: 04 Jun 1890
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Joannis Kennedy
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Annabella Coffey Kennedy
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C01125-8
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1936950
Reference Number: yr 1888-1890 p 215


Teresa

Maude was my Grandmother. She passed away in the early 90s sadly. Really really wish I'd quizzed her more and made notes..d'oh :-)
Where are you getting these records from Teresa? I didn't know the Catholic records were online? I volunteered to help transcribe the data but was told the archive doesn't have the money to pay for the staff required to oversee the volunteers :-(..but I've also been told the data was transcribed years ago but never put to use..and I was told yesterday that they actually have a team working through them now? the phrase A**e and Elbow springs to mind :-)
Your info re Elizabeth Teresa Kennedy has been big surprise..as has the suggestion elsewhere that he may have changed regiment in India to stay near a family he'd had there. The plot just keeps thickening.

the transcripts are from the Familysearch site.

could his be your annabella's christening?

record title: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
name: Annabella Elizabetha Coffey
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 01 Apr 1860
baptism/christening place: St. Mary, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Northumberland, England
birth date: 24 Mar 1860
father's name: Edvardi Coffey
mother's name: Maria Hodge Coffey
indexing project (batch) number: C01725-2
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1936948


Teresa