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Might not William and Rebecca have wanted to register the children as Briggs, rather than under Rebecca's married name of Cox, and believed the only way to achieve this was for Rebecca to pose as Lydia, the 'official wife', but Rebecca kept her own identity so far as she could by adding 'formerly Cox, formerly Belsham', rather than the real Lydia's maiden name of Stump?

" She [Rebecca] has also put L Briggs Mother on her other childrens birth certs between her and william so it would appear that she was passing herself off as lydia on offical documentation

I doubt any mother would register her child in another woman's name.


The fact that the wrong maiden name appears for Lydia suggests that a third party probably altered the facts and got the ladies' name mixed up.


I would compare them with photocopies of the originals.

CB

Amanda, re Madmeg's last post;
My grandad, Lydia Stump's nephew, always knew her as Sally. So it looks like we have found her death and that she died still using the name Briggs. He also mentioned that she lived in Nisbet Street.

Thanks madmeg i have sent for it but this will be for Lydia Briggs the first wife and not rebecca ellen (lydia) as i already have her death cert.

For once I am totally "stumped"!

It does indeed look as though Rebecca was calling herself Lydia - but why? A couple of trees on Ancestry have her as Lydia Sally, this could be her death:

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Lydia Sally Briggs
Name: Lydia Sally Briggs
Birth Date: 24 Feb 1893
Death Registration Month/Year: 1975
Registration district: Hackney
Inferred County: London
Volume: 12
Page: 1247

Lydia Briggs/Stump was married to my grandfather and they had children together but which ones i am still establishing just received Thomas Arthur cert and it states no details for father. The address given 19 nisbet street Hackney.
Now we know that at the time William was living with Rebecca Ellen cox formerly Belsham at 6 Selman street as this was the year my father was born 1924, and all this is on his But on my fathers certificate it shows that mothers details are put as L R Briggs as the mother. Now she wasnt a Briggs at this time as she never married my grandfather until 1949 (9 years after her first husbands death)
She has also put L Briggs Mother on her other childrens birth certs between her and william so it would appear that she was passing herself off as lydia on offical documentation. (well thats my assumption)
But if Lydia Stump the real Lydia Briggs was recording no fathers details at the time who was the one messing around?

As for the previous post of the divorce it was a correct divorce but not for our people as the mans details were correct but not the womans.

Clear as mud i hear you saying!!

My point about altering facts is not related to Ellen.

You say that on the children's birth certs it says mother was " Lydia briggs late cox forerly belsham "


But according to the marriage details found earlier, it was wife Rebecca who was Belsham, not Lydia.

Lydia was Stump.

Has someone doctored the certificates ?

To make things even more confusing Lydia Stump had a sister named ELLEN (known as Nell) whose marital arrangements are even more of a mystery to those of us trying to piece together the descendants of Thomas Stump and Hannah nee Crow (remember them from Lydia's wedding cert.). Hannah Rosina Stump (my grt grandmother) WAS Lydia's sister in law.

The details I posted were correct, ie the wife was Ellen.

However to be the right divorce, the wife should have been Lydia, so obviously I had found the divorce of another William Henry Briggs.

Ie I had posted the details of a divorce for a different William Henry Briggs, mistakenly thinking it was the correct one, for which I apologised.

I'm still not clear on this.

Are you saying you named Ellen in the divorce details that you posted, and you meant to say Lydia?

Thinking she was Ellen, I looked for a marriage of Edward Heales (named on the divorce petition) to a Ellen Briggs - and there is this one:

England & Wales, Marriage Index: 1916-2005
about Edward Heales
Name: Edward Heales
>>>>>Spouse Surname: Briggs Or Barrett (Ellen)
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1931
Registration district: Coventry
Registration county (inferred): Warwickshire
Volume Number: 6d
Page Number: 2060

So that's where Barrett (not Bennett) came from.

So I've now looked for a marriage of Lydia Briggs to Edward Heales - and there isn't one (though maybe she didn't marry him anyway).

But even if the above marriage is irrelevant, I am still confused why your grandparents children have the mother as Lydia.

Oh dont do that Kucinta you have been a real help to me and i really appreciate all that you have done. Thank you for everyone else that got involved as well. This is turning out to be quite juicy.

Mea Culpa!

Sorry - the cause of the confusion is me.

In my excitement at finding a divorce for a William Henry Briggs, I forgot it was his second partner who had Ellen as one of her forenames, not the first wife, who was Lydia.

I'll crawl away and hide under the nearest stone...

Someone has been altering facts I think.

It was Grandmother Rebecca who was Belsham not Lydia.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Mar 1910

Baker Florence Hackney 1b 676
>>>>>>>>>>>BELSHAM Rebecca Hackney 1b 676
>>>>>>>>>>>COX Henry Herbert Hackney 1b 676
Turner William Gladstone Hackney 1b 676



2nd marriage

Marriages Sep 1949

Briggs William S H - Cox- Hackney 5c 1834
Cox Rebecca E- Briggs - Hackney 5c 1834

From what was written on childrens birth cert
" Lydia briggs late cox forerly belsham "

It would appear Lydia's maiden name was Belsham .

Who mentioned Bennett ?

This could be her birth, so 18 when marrying your grandad.

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Lydia Stump
Name: Lydia Stump
Year of Registration: 1893
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Hackney
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 626 (click to see others on page)

So if divorced in 1930 and last Briggs/Stump child born 1929, and remarried by 1931, where did Barrett come from?

This is odd - so who is Lydia? Not your nan, and seemingly not the woman your grandad divorced. Ellen Briggs or Barrett married Edward Heales in Coventry, Sep 1931. No mention of Stump or Lydia.

Court for Divorce and Matrimonial Causes, later Su... J 77/2804/6846
Divorce Court File: 6846. Appellant: William Henry Briggs. Respondent: Ellen Briggs. Co-respondent: Edward Heales. Type: Husband's petition for divorce [HD]. . Divorce Court File: 6846. Appellant: William Henry Briggs. Respondent: Ellen Briggs. Co-respondent:
Date: 1930
Source: The Catalogue of The National Archives

Thank you for your hard work this is getting very interesting indeed will look forward to building up this picture. Perhaps this is why that side of my family was all cloak and dagger around my mum lol.

HI,

I tought Hannah Stump, witness at Lydia's wedding, was her mother, but now believe she may be her sister in law, wife of brother Henry.

Name: Henry Stump
Age: 21
Estimated birth year: abt 1886
Spouse Name: Hannah Rosina Hood
Spouse Age: 22
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 26 Dec 1907
Parish: All Souls, Clapton
County: Middlesex
Borough: Hackney
Father Name: Thomas Stump
Spouse Father Name: Charles Hood

Marriage of Lydia's parents Thomas and Hannah?

Name: Thomas Stump
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1856
Spouse Name: Hannah Crow
Spouse Age: 19
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 24 Jan 1876
Parish: St James the Great, Bethnal Green
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: John Stump
Spouse Father Name: John Crow

Thomas Stump, bach, age 20, dealer of Bethnal Green son of John Stump, dealer, married after banns Hannah Crow, spinster, aged 19 of Bethnal Green, daur of John Crow, dealer. Both Hannah and Thomas made their mark rather than signed the register.Witnesses were Jospeh Claydon and Emily Gentry, who also made their mark.

Census 1901

Name: Lydia Stump
Age: 8
Estimated birth year: abt 1893
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Thomas
Mother's Name: Hannah
Gender: Female
Where born: Hackney, London, England

Civil parish: Hackney
Ecclesiastical parish: All Souls Clapton
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Hackney
Sub-registration district: Central Hackney
ED, institution, or vessel: 23
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 217

Household Members: Name Age

Thomas Stump 49 c1852 Hackney, London, England. General Dealer (Barrowman)

>>>Hannah Stump 43 c1858 Whitechapel, London, England.

William Stump 19 c1882 Hackney, London, England. Carman labourer to contractor.

Henry Stump 14 c1887 Hackney, London, England.

George Stump 10 c1891 Hackney, London, England.

>>>Lydia Stump 8 c 1893 Hackney, London, England.

Mary Stump 5 c1896 Hackney, London, England.

Abraham Stump 19 c1882 Hackney, London, England.In the army (Militia).