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You're very welcome, now I can concentrate on mine! ... unless something other shiny object appears here, lol.

right thank you for your time in helping me but i have now got to go to work many thanks once again

You're doing it again ...

well i got the short birth cert from my own father for victor ellis kuhl
it says victor ellis kuhl
father theodore victor kuhl
mother alice hether ellis
but senting off for the full cert it came back
victor ellis
father theodore ellis
mother alice esther ellis


I don't know. Somebody here may know more about short vs long certificates and why they might differ - ?

You're sure the name Kuhl isn't in the surname column on the long one? I'm sure you are, just checking, lol.

well i got the short birth cert from my own father for victor ellis kuhl
it says victor ellis kuhl father theodore victor kuhl mother alice hether ellis but senting off for the full cert it came back victor ellis father theodore ellis mother alice esther ellis

'theodore as far as i can see lived with alice when she died he married dorothy ellis '

That looks like about the size of it.

Lucky that old law got changed. An ancestor of mine was widowed and married his deceased wife's widowed sister. Except they weren't allowed to marry, so there's a lot of kids born on the wrong side there. Of course in your case since he wasn't married the first time, no problem anyway!

Makes the family tree easy, anyway, when both wives had the same ancestors!

alice died in 1908 and theodore married dorothy in 1913

sorry reading back that is not very clear
alice ester ellis mother to
victor eills
charles ellis kuhl

dorothy ellis (her sister) mother to
dorothy maria kuhl
maurice ellis kuhl

theodore as far as i can see lived with alice when she died he married dorothy ellis

Since Theodore died in 1918 he should be on the 1911 census, and he is.

http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx

KUHL V THEODORE M 1875 36 St Pancras London

Then you search for any Kuhl living with Theodore Kuhl and you get

KUHL CHARLES M 1906 5 St Pancras London
KUHL VICTOR M 1903 8 St Pancras London

and then you have to get tricky if you don't want to pay (but someone here who does subscribe will likely flesh this out) and search for wildcard name *A* and *E* and *I* and so on, living with Theodore Kuhl

and we end up with ... nobody, just him and the two boys. So he reared them, maybe their mother had died?

First I have to do this because I just can't follow that!



no i have not found hin in a census yet

iam sorry to be a pain but would this account for another family member having the surname

my great grandfather was victor ellis kuhl but on full birth cert it give his name as victor ellis

his father was theodor victor kuhl but on victor ellis cert it is theodore ellis mother alice esther ellis

so where would the name kuhl come from

also the other brothers and sister of victor ellis have father theodore victor kuhl on them



Ah yes. You seem to have more than one person in the same situation, don't you?

Victor would have known his father was Kuhl even though it wasn't on the certificate, and gone by that name.

His mother wanted to look married when she registered his birth so she fudged the father's name to match hers.

Was Alice the mother of Leopold as well? ... no, that doesn't make sense. How are Victor and Leopold related?


For info:

Deaths Sep 1918 (>99%)
Kuhl Theodore V 41 Uxbridge 3a 55

Not born or married in England?

no i have not found hin in a census yet iam sorry to be a pain but would this account for another family member having the surname my great grandfather was victor ellis kuhl but on full birth cert it give his name as victor ellis his father was theodor victor kuhl but on victor ellis cert it is theodore ellis mother alice esther ellis so where would the name kuhl come from also the other brothers and sister of victor ellis have father theodore victor kuhl on them

That's what I got!

It was quite common for the children of unmarried parents to be given the father's surname as a second or third given name. If the father agreed and was present, the child could have been registered in his name, but that was less common.

I have a family member with a surname as a middle name, and we understand that was the name of the household where her mother was a domestic servant. The father (either the head of household or his son) would not have wanted the child to have his surname, but she wanted the name to be known, it seems.

Leopold may have known who his father was and what the circumstances of his birth were, and chosen to go by his father's surname, or he may have been reared with both parents. Have you found him in any census with a parent or parents?

Bruceabt1959
am i right with the name heyden

thank you juile and Bruceab1959 for takeing the time to help me

You can make an interesting discovery.

Search for births 1855-1862 (for good measure) using nothing but

given names: LEOPOLD WILLIAM

You will see his birth immediately in the list of results, but his surname wasn't Ellis!

His parents were likely not married at the time, but his father was an Ellis.

No one can see the surname you entered in the 'surname' line, believe it or not.

It is best to put a full name, date and location in your subject line. You can edit it to do that.

Try again at FreeBMD. There are two entries for

Ellis
Leopold W

and one is his marriage!

When you have unusual names you can be very general in your searches. Your problem probably was that you included his wife's full name in your search, and she was spelled Catherine.

Oh..you didn't put his surname in your post..if you want help then you need to post as much as you know
______________

Here it is

Marriages Dec 1880 (>99%)
Ellis Leopold William H Holborn 1b 1207<<<<<
Heaphy James Holborn 1b 1207
Heapy James Holborn 1b 1207
McCarthy Ann Holborn 1b 1207
Preston Catherine Mary Holborn 1b 1207<<<<<<

hi juile
no he is leopold willian ellis as far as i know

Should his surname be Williams cos there is this one

Births Mar 1861 (>99%)
WILLIAMS Leopold Frederick Islington 1b 312

hi juile

yes i have looked just cant seen to find what i am looking for

Have you looked on this site it's free to search

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl