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Can anybody please find a baptism record on Ancestry for a Lydia Clara Bayley on Ancestry.. Her birth was June Q 1855
Lydia Clara Bayley St Martin Folio 1a page 290.

Or perhaps any other baptism record of either any other Clara Bayley or a Clara Firman, born any time to have been old enough to have had a son in 1871
Granddaughter

I had a look but didn't find her under any of the names, I'm afraid.

Thanks for trying
Granddaughter

There is this 'submitted' record on www.familysearch.org. As its submitted I think the details would need checking, especially as the place of birth is wrong. Do you know anything of Lydia's parents

Lydia Clara Bailey
Birth: About 1859 Wicken, Cambridge, England

Father: John Bailey
Mother: Susan

Could this be her? Confusing though. Do the children belong to John or his sister Sarah? John is unmarried, Sarah a widow, so why do they have the same last name?
1861 census
Bedfordbury?, Westminster, London
John C. Bailey, head, 30, unmarried, coach man
Sarah, sister, 36, widow, waistcoat maker
John Hy., son, 13, errand boy
**Lydia Clara, dau, 6
All born Westminster.

1861??

thought I would show you this one.... too young though

Lydia Bailey
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Susan
Gender: Female
Where born: Wicken, Cambridgeshire, England

Civil parish: Wicken
County/Island: Cambridgeshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Newmarket
Sub-registration district: Soham
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 87
Household Members: Name Age
John Bailey 31
Susan Bailey 23
George Bailey 4
Lydia Bailey 2


Regards vera

Is this for the Lydia Bayley nee Firman who was the mother of Harry Bayley b1871 Edmonton, in your other post?

Only two births for a Lydia Firman between 1837 and 1855:

Births Sep 1843 (>99%)
Firman Lydia Newmarket 14 109

Births Jun 1846 (98%)
Firman Lydia Ann Newmarket 14 133

I will see if I can trace them onwards.

Edit : no baptisms on familysearch for 1822 - 1837

Lydia born 1846:

Marriage:

Marriages Sep 1872 (>99%)

>>>>>>>Firman Lydia Newmarket 3b 933
PALMER Isaac Newmarket 3b 933
RANDALL Hannah Newmarket 3b 933
>>>>>>>SEYMOUR Walter Newmarket 3b 933

1881 note Harry's POB - I cannot find a birth for Harry Seymour!

1881 England Census
about Lydia Seymour
Name: Lydia Seymour
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Walter
Gender: Female
Where born: Soham, Cambridgeshire, England

Civil parish: Lenton
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England

Street Address: 2 Walker Yard
Condition as to marriage: Married
Walter Seymour 35
Lydia Seymour 36
Harry Seymour 9 - Cambs, Ponder's End
Hetty Seymour 7
Theodora Seymour 5
Alexander Seymour 2

I have copied the following from granddaughter's other post so that all the relevant info is on one thread (she is in South Africa so not likely to be on line at the moment)

"I have just received the birth certificate of a certain Harry Bayley, born 9th July,1871 at South Street, Ponders End, Enfield, Registration District Edmonton. His parents were Harry and Lydia (formerly Firman) Bayley.
Harry Bailey was a Corporal, First Battalion, Grenadier Guards.
Please try and find them in the 1871 Census, which was just before Harry Bayley was born.
Also please any other information about other members of the family. Also, if you can find them in the 1881 Census it would be much appreciated"

"Hi everybody who kindly replied to my posting.
Yes Denise and Potty, Harry Bayley's father was a Corporal, First Battalion, Grenadier Guards.
Vera, I was also unable to find a marriage for the parents of Harry Bayley, born 1871. The birth certificate you referred to, Birth Sept. 1871, is the certificate I have just received in the post (I live in South Africa)
Ralleyreg, unfortunately I have no other details of the parents of Harry Bayley, born, 1871. My grandfather Harry/Henry Bayley/Bailey never knew who his parents were and believed he had been orphaned at an early age and apparently placed in a home/orphanage/institution.
I have always thought the Harry Bailey Potty found in the 1891 Census is probably my grandfather. I also found a Harry Bayley having been admitted to The Strand Union Children's Establish, Edmonton, in 1878, from St. Giles District, London.
Then I also found a Henry Bailey in the 1881 Census, as an inmate of The Strand Union Children's Establishment, Edmonton. My grandfather attended the Regent Street Polytechnic and joined the Royal Army Medical Corps in 1893. He eventually settled in South Africa after having been sent here for the duration of the Anglo-Boer War - 1889-1901. For the rest of his life he tried to find out who he was, but couldn't, so I for the last eight years have been trying to solve this mystery. Can anybody make any suggestions to where to go from here. I also have an old photo, dated 1884/5 of a brass band in which he played, but to date nobody has been able to identify the uniforms. I have travelled to London twice to try and solve thismystery, but have so far failed. Any further suggestions?"

No marriage has been found for Harry Bailey/Lydia Firman.

What does anybody else feel about the coincedence of two Harry/Henry's being born to a Lydia Firman in the same year in the same place (Ponder's End), even though the census info doesn't tie up with him not knowing his parents!

The 1891 has Harry as Henry Seymour, 19, born Ponders End, Middlesex. Walter is a widow.

Hello Potty, I am so muddled now as I have discovered that the Harry Bayley, supposedly born to Harry Bayley of Grenadier Guards and Lydia Bayley (formerly Firman) in 1871 at Ponders End, Enfield, was I think the Harry Seymour I found in the 1881 Census, also born Ponders Green, but Cambridgeshire, his mother being Lydia Seymour, having married Walter Seymour in 1872, a year after Harry Bayley was born. In the 1881 Census Walter Seymour is named the father of Harry Seymour (the eldest child, born a year before they were married! I wonder if Lydia Firman was unmarried when her son Harry Bayley was born at Enfield, and when she married Walter Seymour in 1872, they changed his name to Harry Seymour? Was somebody called Harry Bayley perhaps the actual father, but disappeared off the scene?

There is apparently also a Sarah Bayley living in South Street, Ponders End in the 1871 Census. Could Sarah and Lydia be sisters? I am practically sure now that Harry Bayley/Seymour was not my grandfather as he always told us he thought he was an only child, orphaned at an early age?!
Yes, I was referring to the same Harry Bayley in both of my postings. I am still of the opinion that the Harry Bayley that became an inmate of The Strand Unions Children's Establishment in 1878 was my grandfather, but I just cannot be sure with no proof whatsoever. Any advice?

This one is really a puzzle! As I said, there only appear to be two Lydia Firman births at about the right time and only one is traceable through the census (apart from that critical 1871!) and that one seems to have married Walter Seymour. I can't find a birth for a Harry/Henry Seymour at the right time and that Ponders End POB seems to fit.

Was there a father's name on your grandfather's marriage cert?

Have to log off now but will be back on tomorrow.

I still think it might be a good idea to post a request for a lookup at the National Archives for the Muster lists. If you do, make sure you make it clear that that is all you want or you might have people trying to help and re-looking for what we have already found!

Hello Potty

No, there was no father or mother's name on my grandfather's marriage certificate - he didn't know who they were. They were married in Cape Town, South Africa in October, 2003. When he decided to settle in South Africa after the Anglo-Boer War he sent for his fiance, who lived in Southamption, who had been waiting for him to return to England, and they were married the day her ship docked in Cape Town. One of the main reasons he decided to settle here was because he believed he had no living relatives.

Is this the Sarah Bayley in the 1871 - the image could be Bayley. She wouldn't be Lydia's sister (Lydia's MN was Firman) but she might be a relation of Harry's:
871 England Census
about Sarah Bagley
Name: Sarah Bagley
Age: 52
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Waltham Abbey, Essex, England
Civil parish: Enfield
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: Ponders End
Sarah Bagley 52
Elizabeth Dunn 15
Walker Bush 21

Address: No 2 Marsden Cottages, South Street

Hi Potty,Thanks for the information on Sarah Bagley/Bayley. I was wondering whether she could be the mother of Harry Bayley, the father
of Harry Bayley b. 1871 in South Street, Ponders End, Enfield? Is it possible to find out where this Harry Bayley, Corporal, First Battalion, Grenadier Guards was, in the 1871, 1881 and 1891 Census?

Looking back on previous censuses, I think the Sarah in the 1871 is BaGley and not BaYley. The name is transcribed as both on previous censuses.

1861:
Name: Sarah Bayley
Age: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1817
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: William
Where born: Waltham Abbey, Essex, England
Civil parish: Enfield
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
William Bayley 44
Sarah Bayley 44
John Bayley 21 - b Waltham Abbey

There is a Dunn family living next door and an Elizabeth Dunn is shown as a neice in 1871

1851:
1851 England Census
about Sarah Bagley
Name: Sarah Bagley
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1817
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: William
Where born: Waltham Abbey, Essex, England
Civil parish: Walham Holy Cross
Town: Waltham Abbey
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
William Bagley 34
Sarah Bagley 34
John Bagley 11 - born Waltham Abbey

1841:
Name: Sarah Dunn
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Gender: Female
Where born: Essex, England
Civil parish: Waltham Abbey
Hundred: Waltham
County/Island: Essex
Sarah Dunn 20
John Dunn 2

Marriage?
Marriages Sep 1842 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>BAGGALEY William Edmonton 3 99
CRIGHTON David Edmonton 3 99
>>>>DUNN Sarah Edmonton 3 99
GIBBS Ann Edmonton 3 99
HART Ann Edmonton 3 99
JAMIESON Mortimer Edmonton 3 99

The only census that can be searched by occupation is the 1881 and I cannot find Harry Bailey Snr on that.

To find him on any other census without knowing when and where he was born would be very difficult.

Lorraine, I am sure you have covered all this but just a few thoughts

Did your grandfather have any middle names?
Do you have any Army papers? Does it give any indication to place of birth?
There are so many Harry/Henry Bailey/Bailey births in 1871 I am wondering why you settled on the one that you have?
Have any brothers or sisters ever been mentioned?
Do you know what Grandad's actual birthday was?

Although I think Lorraine is ruling this out I will post for reference,

Lydia Firman
Christening: 05 DEC 1847 Wesleyan Methodist, Ely, Cambridge, England
Father: John Firman
Mother: Susan Firman

Also if grandad was born before marriage, wouldn't his surname be Firman?

Hi Selena
My grandfather had no known middle name - he was always known as Henry Bailey, but grandmother called him Harry. I have a complete record of his army career which I got from the National Archives in 2007 when searching there personally
SHORT SERVICE
(7 years with the Colours, and 5 years in the Reserve)
No. 10,092
Name: Henry Bailey
Corps: Medical Staff Corps
Joined at Aldershot on 20th June 1893
Born in the Parish of Edmonton in or near the Town of London
British Subject? Yes
Age: 19 years 4 months
Trade or Calling: Waiter
Have you been an apprentice?: No
Are you married? No
Do you now belong to Her Majesty's Army, the Marines etc? Yes. Militia Medical Staff Corps
(Note: in 1898 The Medical Staff Corps became known as The Royal Army Medical Corps, and he was discharged on 19th June, 1905 in Cape Town, South Africa, after having completed his twelve years of service)
Name and address of next of kin: Charles Bailey, father
35, Burton Crescent, London W 5 (orS?)
(At some stage between 1893 and 1905 this information was crossed out
and the form stated
No living relations
Friend: Styles Willis, 17, Moray Road, Tollington Park, London

Burton Crescent was at a later stage renamed Cartwright Gardens. It is near Tavistock Place and Upper Woburn Place.
Close to Burton Crescent is Burton Street, where in the 1891 Census a Harry Bailey lived, lodger, aged 20, kitchen porter, born Edmonton
I have never been able to trace this Charles Bailey. supposedly his father. (This entry might not be true but grandfather could have made up a name to save himself embarrassment)

Grandfather had no known brothers or sisters. He celebrated his birthday on 4th July, retiring aged 60 in Cape Town in 1933 (I don't think he knew exactly when he was born) He said he was orphaned at a very early age and place in an orphanage by an uncle. That "uncle" might not have been a relative, in my opinion, but some official.
Granddaughter

Not that this is of any help to you but I thought Styles (his friend) was an unusual name. Unfortunately no one has him in his tree.

Births Mar 1861 WILLIS Stiles Greenwich 1d 627
Marriages Dec 1893 Willis Styles George W Lambeth 1d 799
Deaths Jun 1916 Willis Styles 54 Birmingham 6d 382

1881
George WILLIS Head M Male 66 Maidstone, Kent, England Tobacconist
Jane Baker WILLIS Wife M Female 58 Tunbridge Wells, Kent, England Tobacconist
Styles WILLIS Son U Male 20 Greenwich, Kent, England Assistant
Martha EPLETT Partner U Female 63 Charlestown, Cornwall, England Tobacconist
Dwelling 11 Plumstead Road
Census Place Plumstead, Kent, England

Plumstead is in South East London now