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Did wonder if the marriage of John Busby and Ann Hodgson Preston Sept 1843 was a second marriage of the father of John Busby b 1838, who married Jane Cowburn.

But then no idea who Ann Hodgson is, and cannot find John and Ann on any census.

Margaret

I had the marriage of Ellen Busby and John Cowburn in my previous email. You perhaps didn't spot it amongst the other stuff.

I somehow didn't think you would give up yet, though I tried to give you a get-out. But like you, I would like to get to the bottom of this.

Yep, Cowburn and Busby inter-marry. But as you say, no apparent connection with Hodgson or Hardern.

Losing the plot.

Margaret

Aha.

Marriages Sep 1847
BUSBY Ellen Preston 21 408
Cowburn John Preston 21 408

So John Busby married an in-law.

*If* that's your John Bushby. And still no idea how Bus*by or Cowdell connects with Hodgson (or Hardern) ...

>> Oops, Cowdell is *my* family. Cowburn is yours ... or not. ;)

John and Jane in Macclesfield:
In 1881, John Busby is b 1838 Ireland, Jane 1841 Kirkham.
Can't find in 1891.
In 1901, John b 1838, Lurgan, Ireland, Jane 1840 Kirkham.

Deaths John Jun 1905, Jane Mar 1909, both Macclesfield.

Found John poss in 1861 in Preston:
Ellen Cowburn Wid 30 b Ireland
Elizabeth Cowburn 13 b Kirkham
Jane Cowburn 1 b Kirkham
John Busby 25 u/m brother b Ireland

Marriage Sep 1847 Preston, Ellen Busby and John Cowburn.

1871, Jane Cowburn 12, inmate Fulwood Workhouse.

Possible deaths - John Cowburn Mar 1860, Ellen Cowburn Sep 1864, both Preston.

1851 Preston:
John Cowburn 30, b Kirkham
E Cowburn 22 Wife, b Ireland
E Cowburn 3 Dau, b Preston
J Barley 40 Wid, Visitor, b Ireland
J Barley 16 u/m. Visitor, b Ireland.

Can't find John Busby in 1851, but perhaps still in Ireland.

None of this leads to me work out how John Busby and Jane Cowburn come to be aunt and uncle of Sarah Jane Hodgson, but given that I now know who the Harderns are, perhaps I need not pursue it further.

Thanks Janey as usual - I am trying to learn to apply logic to wildcards, hopefully improving.

Margaret

1841 Kirkham, Lancs:
Thomas Cowburn 20
Elizabeth Cowburn 20
William Cowburn 4
James Cowburn 2
Jane Cowburn 1
Ann Cowburn 2 Mo

Thomas Cowburn m Elizabeth Bradshaw, Kirkham, Preston, Dec 1838.

Lancs bmd/Freebmd.

Lancs bmd. Betsy Busby m Robert Saul.

Lancs bmd has John Busby and Jane Cowburn.

Think you have got this.

Did I miss this?

Jane Cowburn m John Busby, Preston, Dec 1861.

You are too fast for me, still trotting behind you.

Ok, see the Cowburn connection now.

1851
Thomas Cowburn 33
Betty Cowburn 33
William Cowburn 14
James Cowburn 12
Jane Cowburn 11
George Cowburn 10
Thomas Cowburn 9
Ann Cowburn 8
Ambrose Cowburn 5
Elizabeth Cowburn 2
Ellen Cowburn 1

More likely for the sister in that 1851 household, which of course may not be our John:

Marriages Dec 1856
> Busby Betsy Preston 8e 577
Cherry James Preston 8e 577
Hensor Alice Preston 8e 577
Saul Robert Preston 8e 577

Betty Bushby m Edward Tominson 1871. No marriage for Sarah Bushby.

Margaret

I may need to start typing in capital letters!

The 1871 household has Margaret Hodson (Hodgson, we are assuming) living with John and Jane Bushby.

I've seen situations in which there have been many variations on the name Busby over the censuses in one family. I immediately considered Busby. I searched for the marriage of a John Bus*y to a Jane. I posted the one that looked possible:

"My best bet for the John+Jane marriage, which doesn't help:
Marriages Dec 1861
Atkinson William Preston 8e 598
Cowburn Jane Preston 8e 598"

>>>> Ack! I'm a moron! I copied the wrong groom! Here:

Marriages Dec 1861
Atkinson William Preston 8e 598
? Busby John Preston 8e 598
Cowburn Jane Preston 8e 598
? Hurrell Elizabeth Preston 8e 598


So that was why I went looking for a Jane Cowburn, just to check her out.

Haven't thought of a theory to explain the relationship between them and Margaret Hodgson yet!

OK 1851, got it. Yes it is Hardern, seems reasonably consistent, have tried variations, Harden being the most obvious. Just twigged that the Hurden family you found in 1851 is Hardern. I am a bit slow.

John Busby Preston is possible. Kirkham only a few miles away. Will look at the sisters now.

Not at all sure about the Marsh/Cowburn/Lewtas lot - what attracted you to them?

Margaret

JH, Joseph Hodgson, whom I found in 1851, not by any trick. ;)

The other surname that is so mangled in the censuses -- it is HARDERN? I did a FreeBMD search after I asked and discovered that it is unique to that location.

Sorry Janey, misunderstanding here. Who do you mean by JH, and by your question do I know who the other H is? What other H?

Margaret

Hmm. Pretty tenuous ...

Marriages Sep 1843
? BUSBY John Preston 21 383
HINDLE Isabella Preston 21 383
? HODGSON Ann Preston 21 383
HOUGH Richard Preston 21 383
MILSOM Ann Preston 21 383
RILEY William Walker Preston 21 383
TEASDALE William Preston 21 383
WAREING Jane Preston 21 383


Do you know what that other H surname actually is?

As it happens, JH turned up in 1861 under his proper name. ;)
(EDIT - that was supposed to be "in 1851", the one I put above.)

I just figured he'd be a lot easier to find than whatever the * that other surname is!

Maybe we'll find a Roome hiding in their closet ...

My best bet for the John+Jane marriage, which doesn't help:

Marriages Dec 1861
Atkinson William Preston 8e 598
Cowburn Jane Preston 8e 598

Possibly Jane in 1861:

Name: Jane Cowburn
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Lodger
Where born: Kirkham, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Fishwick
Town: Preston

Ellen Marsh 50
Eliza Marsh 25
Mary Marsh 24
Susanah Marsh 21
John Thos Marsh 2
James Cowburn 24
David Lewtas 24
Ellen Lewtas 19
Jane Cowburn 20

Possibly John in 1861:

Name: John Busby
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Jane
Where born: Preston, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Preston

Jane Busby 59
William Busby 31
Betsy Busby 26
John Busby 18
Sarah Busby 16


Could the relationship be through one of his sisters?

Thanks Janey.

I'm obviously being too precise in the search criteria, will I never learn?

I hope you'll be pleased to know that Charles and Sarah Jane Mathers are the parents in law of Albert Dallows/Dallorzo/Roome.

Don't go away!

Margaret

I haven't absorbed all that yet, but git yer 1851 here:

Name: Joseph Hodgson
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Relation: Lodger
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Male
Where born: Rotherham, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: MacClesfield

William Hurdam 63
Sarah Hurdam 57
Ann Hurdam 18
Jane Hurdam 15
Martha Hurdam 10
Joseph Hodgson 25
Elizabeth Hodgson 25
>> Thomas Hodgson 2


Searched for Jos* Hod* 1810-1830, wife Elizabeth, in Macclesfield.


Fits with your 1861:

Best effort 1861 Macclesfield:
Sarah Hardern 67
Ann Hardern 28
Jane Hardern 25
Martha Hardern 19
>> Thomas Hodgson 12 g/s
Margaret Ann Hodgson 6 g/d
Sarah Jane Hodgson 5 g/d