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Hi everyone, I have a bit of a confusing situation and I have looked at it so long I am confusing myself!

I seem to have two marriage records in the English BDM’s listed for a Frederick John Harding Kibble.

One states that Frederick J H Kibble married Kate E Hubbard in September 1913 in Leicester, Leicestershire, Volume 7A page 652.

The second states that Frederick J H Kibble married Evelyn Hubbard in the July/August/Sept quarter in 1922 in the Registration district of Foleshill, Registration County of Warwickshire. Volume 6d page 1457.

I can next locate two birth records of an Edwin Harding Kibble born 1913 and Mary E kibble born 1913 both in Leicester, Warwickshire.

The Kibble family then emigrated from London, England aboard the ship Barrabool, arriving in Sydney, New South Wales on 27 November 1922. The passenger manifest shows that the Kibble family consisted of Frederick (30), Male, Farmer, Eveline (25), Edwin (9) and Mary E (7).

Now I cannot locate any birth record of an Evelyn or Eveline Hubbard matching the age given in the passenger manifest (25) so I would expect her born about 1897, nor any census returns.

I can locate a Kate Hubbard in the 1891, 1901 and then in the 1911 census where she is shown as residing with her Uncle and Aunt Thomas and Ann Hubbard. Kate is aged 22, her occupation is Housework and she is shown as born in Smockington, Leicestershire. However Kate is to young for the age of 25 shown on the manifest. I would expect her age to be about 33 and born in 1889.

I am a bit puzzled why there would be two different marriage records for Frederick. It’s an unusual name as well. I tried to locate a death of Kate in case Frederick married her sister or cousin but I can’t find anything like that.

I can trace Frederick and Evelyn in the Australian Electoral Roles after they arrived and Frederick is always shown as a Farmer and Evelyn engaged in Hime Duties.

I have probably missed something obvious so a new pair of eyes would be greatly appreciated!

Regards

Rachelle

Ok lets start with the obvious and check all data...

Name: Edwin H Kibble
Year of Registration: 1913
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Mother's Maiden Name: Hubbard
District: Hinckley
County: Leicestershire, Warwickshire
Volume: 7a
Page: 72

Name: Mary E Kibble
Year of Registration: 1915
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Mother's Maiden Name: Hubbard
District: Lutterworth
County: Leicestershire, Northamptonshire, Warwickshire
Volume: 7a
Page: 8

Name: Frederick J H Kibble
Spouse Surname: Hubbard
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1922
Registration district: Foleshill
Registration county (inferred): Warwickshire
Volume Number: 6d
Page Number: 1457
Find Spouse: Evelyn Hubbard


Name: Frederick J H Kibble
Year of Registration: 1913
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Spouse's Surname: [Hb]Ubbard
District: Leicester (1837-1974)
County: Leicestershire
Volume: 7a
Page: 652

I can find both Evelyn and Kate Hubbard's born the Leicestershire area about the right time to be in these marriages.

You need to order both mariage certs to prove it's the same man and to establish parentage of the wives!

Tracey x

Hi Tracey,

Yep I had all that I just wasn't sure if it was likely to be a mistake in the registers, or would Frederick have married twice to a close relative.

Hi Tracey,

Yep I had all that I just wasn't sure if it was likely to be a mistake in the registers, or would Frederick have married twice to a close relative.

I also couldn't find a death record of a Kate Kibble that matched. Would divorce records for England show on the the BDM lists?

any of these could possibly be yours??

Births Sep 1898 (>99%)
HUBBARD Evelyn Timm Leicester 7a 294

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Mar 1899 (>99%)
Hubbard Evelyn Gertrude Leicester 7a 285

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Mar 1900 (>99%)
Hubbard Evelyn Leicester 7a 262


Tracey x

It would have been extremely difficult to get a divorce back then!!

I do however wonder if he's married a close rellie bigamously and ran off to another country to get away?

I do feel sorry for the first first if thats the case, losing her husband and her children,,,

My money if there isn't a death is on bigamy, it was rife back then!


Tracey x

Hi Tracey,

Thank's I'll check them out but there is no Evelyn Hubbard on the 1911 census either, only Kate.

could Evelyn have married a Hubbard and been a widow? so it isn't her maiden name?

Thats quite possible Jan,

However the marriage certs will give it all away, both their previous marriages (if there were any) and whom her parents were...

I am def beginning to think he's been a naughty boy tho! (his second cert should say batchelor and so will his first and if he's not been very clever he'll not have invented a father on the second!)]



Tracey x

you might want to order this cert too...

Births Jun 1892
Kibble Frederick Jonathan H Hinckley 7a 45

Tracey x

Ohhh a bit of a mystery!

I'll see if I can track his death down and what that says also.

Glad that it's not just my eyes!

Another child?
Name: Margaret A Kibble
Mother's Maiden Surname: Hubbard
Date of Registration: Jul Aug Sep 1920
Registration district: Lutterworth
Registration county: Leicestershire, Lincolnshire, Rutland
Volume Number: 7a
Page Number: 10

Hmm more things to track down. I guess if he emigrated only with Evelyn and a 9 and 7 year old perhaps the others died in infancy.

Mysteries!

.... as for the 1911 there are 3 possibles.

HOUSEHOLD HUBBARD EVELYN ANNIE F 1899 12 Blaby Leicestershire
HOUSEHOLD HUBBARD EVELYN GERTRUDE F 1899 12 Lutterworth Leicestershire

and

HOUSEHOLD HUBBARD BEATRICE EVELYN F 1895 16 Nuneaton Warwickshire

Nuneaton is the next town from Coventry (seperated from Foleshill by Bedworth), and Foleshill is the right side of Cov, i'm a Cov kid and know the area very well as i now live in Nuneaton!!

Still the money is on Bigamy lol


Tracey x

Just to thrown even a bigger spanner in the works I have ordered Fredericks death certificate however it states that his spouse is an Evelyn Harding!

Where on earth has that come from!

Hmmmm now then,

That last child found could be Evelyn's?? Hmmm...

manually looked for a death in 1920 to see if Kate died in childbirth, cannot find anything.

Tracey x

So she could have been Hubbard by marriage then?

As he has Harding in his name maybe she's a cousin?


Tracey x

My goodness this gets confusing sometimes!

I have to log off now and hed home to my baby, so please don't think I am rude if I don't reply until tomorrow.

Thanks so much for everyone's help thus far!

MARRIAGE
Name: Kate E Kibble
Spouse Surname: Walton Herbert W
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1937
Registration district: Leicester
Registration county (inferred): Leicestershire
Volume Number: 7a
Page Number: 649


??? can't see any births for a Kate e Kibble

Good mroning everyone,

Update from yesterday:

I now have the death certificates of both Frederick and Evelyn, but it only confirms one thing that Frederick was married twice!

Unfortunately all marriage details are marked as unknown, the spouse name, age that Frederick was when he married and where he was married and does not state if Kate was deceased or if Frederick had been divorced.

It states that Frederick had four children, Edwin, Evelyn (whom I assume is the child registered in 1915 as Mary E), and then he had two children Joan Florence and Elsie May with Evelyn after they arrived in Australia. Frederick's parents are stated as Jonathan Kibble, occupation Farmer and Elizabeth Harding. Frederick is stated as born in Smockington, England.

Evelyn’s death certificate gives me the name of her father – Edwin Hubbard. I’m not sure why there was a reference to her certificate on the BDM site as Harding as there is no Harding mentioned. Her mother is stated as Unknown Hubbard, maiden name unknown, and her birthplace is only stated as England.

It seems a bit unusual to me that given that the informant on Frederick’s death certificate was his daughter that she would not have known even the name of his first wife.

So now I seem to have these extra children that you all kindly found that must not be Frederick’s (or if they were perhaps the children did not know of them)!

Thanks jansmith maybe that is the right Kate?

Seems a little unusual that Frederick would have been able to take both children out of the country from their mother, I guess unless she had deserted them. You would think then that there would be a record of some sort.

Regards

Rachelle